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Impact on performance - position of the front lines bridle along the leading edge

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shlow
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Impact on performance - position of the front lines bridle along the leading edge

Postby shlow » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:24 pm

To satisfy my curiosity... I noticed that different kite model has front lines that are position at different locations along the leading edge.

Appreciate some one who can enlighten me on the changes to performance of the kite if we are to move it around. For example 1. closer to the center of the kite, 2. Two bridle points on the same side moving closer together.

Thank you in advance all your inputs as it will help in my understanding of the kite.

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Re: Impact on performance - position of the front lines bridle along the leading edge

Postby geopeck » Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:04 pm

Kind of quiet out there - so much hubbub on all kinds of silly subjects, can't believe no one has weighed in. I'll tell you what I know just to keep the thread visible and hope for someone to correct me.

I have two kites with adjustment points, the labels on one say that moving towards the center of the kite gives more bar pressure and moving outwards gives less bar pressure. The other one says "wave" and "freestyle" settings, I think the outer points might be wave but I'm not going to check right now.

I had read about the second kite that the wave setting gives less low end than the freestyle setting. I never really changed it around very much, on the first kite I was playing with it last weekend and found that going to the lower bar pressure setting made the tuning feel a little mushy. Couldn't tell the difference in bar pressure but I rode it on one setting one day, other setting the next and the wind was a bit stronger the second day.

I would imagine but don't know that the settings affect the high end as well - I remember flying an early bandit with extremely close attachment points new the center, it had killer low end but at the top end of it's range it kind of wallowed around a bit.

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tautologies
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Re: Impact on performance - position of the front lines bridle along the leading edge

Postby tautologies » Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:07 pm

shlow wrote:To satisfy my curiosity... I noticed that different kite model has front lines that are position at different locations along the leading edge.

Appreciate some one who can enlighten me on the changes to performance of the kite if we are to move it around. For example 1. closer to the center of the kite, 2. Two bridle points on the same side moving closer together.

Thank you in advance all your inputs as it will help in my understanding of the kite.



Hi. I am not an expert, but this is why I think it is so important for kite designers to actually kiteboard when they design kites.

When you have two different front attachment points, look at the kite from front to back and not from the front. If you move the attachment point forward towards the LE, you will need more bar travel to power and depower, but bar pressure will go down. If you move the attachment point towards the trailing edge, you need less bar travel but a bit more bar pressure. This is why they put pulleys on the front, because then you'll have an attachment point that is dynamic, which takes off some of the direct feel you might want. It works like a lever.

Moving the attachment point towards the trailing edge will also open the kite up a bit more, and the kite will feel like it has more power...especially in the low end. The kite will sit a bit deeper and it will move turn a bit more around the center of the kite.

Though there are quite a few variables, like number of attachment points, and to split the load on the LE, bar pressure, and needed bar travel, to general balance of the kite, and how it turns....there is a bit of skill involved to this process in terms of finding a good balance in terms of feature prioritization. The way the bridle is attached to the kite also helps stability across a range of uses. Look at the Ride from Naish. Because of how the the bridle and only two struts works together it is designed to bleed a bit of power when gusts hits the kite. The kite will visually become more C shaped, and it makes the kite fell more stable across the wind range.

Wrong line adjustment can equally ruin a kite (at least did not help a flawed design). I know of two kites where this was a major issue (not Naish). They both had a tendency to fall out of the sky. One of them ended up being sold at 70% off around mid-season, and the second was issued a carbon rod that you stick down the back of a center strut to keep the kite from flying too far forward.


There is a lot more to this, but this is my take on it.

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Re: Impact on performance - position of the front lines bridle along the leading edge

Postby Mossy 757 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:40 pm

If you move the leading edge attachment points further apart from the centerline, it will flatten out the arc of the kite improving power production but slowing down turning speed. The really high AR inflatables are like this...Cabrinha just released a brand new inflatable called the Apollo that has extremely far apart bridle attachments to produce a nice flat arc.

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Re: Impact on performance - position of the front lines bridle along the leading edge

Postby Faxie » Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:52 pm

Mossy 757 wrote:If you move the leading edge attachment points further apart from the centerline, it will flatten out the arc of the kite improving power production but slowing down turning speed. The really high AR inflatables are like this...Cabrinha just released a brand new inflatable called the Apollo that has extremely far apart bridle attachments to produce a nice flat arc.


Ozone Edge got them quite far on the inside.

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Style: Freeride, freestyle, wave.
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Re: Impact on performance - position of the front lines bridle along the leading edge

Postby Faxie » Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:56 pm

About the bar pressure: Moving towpoints to the front doesn't neccesarily means lower bar pressure. You lengthen the leverage on the wingtips, what would suggest lower BP, but you also lengthen at the top of the kite, where the CoP is.

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Re: Impact on performance - position of the front lines bridle along the leading edge

Postby shlow » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:55 am

Mossy 757 wrote:If you move the leading edge attachment points further apart from the centerline, it will flatten out the arc of the kite improving power production but slowing down turning speed. The really high AR inflatables are like this...Cabrinha just released a brand new inflatable called the Apollo that has extremely far apart bridle attachments to produce a nice flat arc.


Thank you all for the feedback Mossy 757, it make sense from the kite shape point of view. The following up questions :D :

- Does it means that a kite with high AR (Flatter arc) will always have the front line bridle points away from the center of the kite and turn slow?
- I understanding that bridle also holds the shape of the kite, but should it not be the shape design as well (except in foils I suppose)?
- Given a same kite (say a 9M C kite), what does moving the Front lines bridle closer to the center of the kites do to the performance? I understand Geopeck reply above, however I think that is referring specifically to the rear lines attachment - impact on the bar pressure and turning speed.

Appreciate you guys weighing in on this questions.


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