North Kites confusion! On purpose???

[Zepheros]

I completely agree! I have been on rebels since 06 and they seem to be progressively getting slower and too grunty. Not enough snap or pop. You feel like the kite is riding you not you riding the kite. Disappointment every year. I finally gave up and bought a 13 evo and recently a 14 evo 12m and I also ride a 10m fuse. The evos are much better than the rebels for the riding you describe. The fuse jumps really high, which is awesome, but hesitates when you turn the kite. So frustrating because I'm in heaven when I send it and disappointed when I free ride or loop it.

The evos still slightly miss that 06 snap and pop; that feeling that you are in complete control of the kite without giving up power and precision. My guess is that this is due to the fact that its not a loaded 5th line and therefore loss of some turning precision.

I completely understand your point and wish that North would start to listen to their consumer a bit more and provide better descriptions so we don't have spend money on a model that disappoints. Also, in my experience the shops tell you what you want to hear or repeat the manufacturers talking points. North has a loyal customer base, but that can be eroded quickly.

If north continues the loaded 5th line rebel, for gods sake please make piviot properly off that 5th line reduce the aspect ratio (more delta shape) so it turns on a dime, get rid of that ridiculous grunt which takes away rider control. Please.

I would recommend the 14 evo, slightly better than the 13, mimics the 06 sufficiently and will give you most of the kiting passion back. Not perfect, but you won't be disappointed like the rebel. turns nicely and loops nicely, jumps well.

Still a loyal north customer for now.

[Zepheros]

And, one more thing. It would be really nice if North had a continuous presence on this form so we could get some information, ask questions. There really is no excuse for a manufacturer not to have a consistent presence on this site for serious discussions.

I suspect that the experience of EPIC kites on this forum has chased away all other OEMs as they don't want to constantly deal with trolls and haters. This now affects all us.

[gvironda]

Dan is a very active an productive north presence on this forum
Strange they already release a new neo, which has proven very successful and praised by owners

[Dan-at-Duotone]

Sorry in advance for the long post. Too much coffee not enough wind...

I'm a little confused by the complaints. Are you guys not sure about our lineup for 2014 and 2015? I feel like it's the most clear and accurate that it has ever been... I guess I can see some confusion because we had a big shuffle between 2013 and 2014, but I think that shuffle was necessary and left us with a pretty clear lineup going forward...

Rebel: Freeride, loaded 5 line... It does everything well as long as you like to stay hooked in. It jumps well, turns well, and gives the most useable range thanks to the fact that the kite remains reactive even when sheeted out. This is the kite that I would recommend to the vast majority of riders. 5 struts means more stability and performance through a larger windrange.

Evo: Freeride, 4/5 line compatible. Also 5 struts. Basically the same target customer as the Rebel, but on 4 lines. I've been told it jumps just a little better than the Rebel, but maybe has slightly less range due to bridles vs 5-lines. The Rebel is our bestselling kite, so we know that there is the demand for this kind of performance, but we also know that for various reasons, there are those who do not want a 5-line kite. Therefore, Evo.

Dice: All around, 4/5 line compatible. Freeride, unhooked freestyle, advanced wave (hooked or unhooked). Basically this is the kite that does it all. It does freestyle really well, but maybe not as well as the Vegas. It's great for freeride, but the 3-strut setup means it may not have the same range or performance at the ends of its range that the Evo/Rebel has. Jumps well, but maybe not as big as the Evo or Rebel. Does waves amazingly well in the waves (great drift from 3-struts), but maybe not quite as well as the Neo.

Neo: Wave, 4/5 line compatible. Wave only. Maximum drift to float down the line coupled with maximum low-end power so you can ride the smallest kite possible, while maintaining quick turning, so you can park and ride down the line or throw it around in onshore conditions.

Vegas: Freestyle. Loaded 5 line. Advanced unhooked freestyle.

As far as complaints about the Rebel... I've said it before and I'll say it again, everyone has their own preferences. If the Rebel no longer suits your riding style, try other kites. I'd hope that there's something in our lineup to make you happy, but if something from another brand makes you happier, by all means ride their gear. I honestly think North makes the best gear available, but everyone is different and there will obviously be many people whose riding styles/personal preferences match other brands' lineups better than ours.

As far as complaints that the Rebel has become gruntier and 'piggish' over the years, that does not jive with my personal experience or the response I've gotten from customers. The single biggest complaint I hear about the Rebel concerns the 2013, when people complained that it had too little low-end, not enough grunt, coupled with an unnecessary amount of top end. Response from customers and dealers to the 2014 has been pretty much 100% positive as Ken brought the low-end of the 2012 back. It is possible that in the years since the Rebel was released that there are other designs that turn faster making the Rebel feel slower in comparison... We have a couple models ourselves.

In my opinion there are two things that the Rebel offers that other kites do not... 1. the performance and reactivity when depowered or when the kite is drifting. There are tons of kites that depower more or less completely. But as you sheet out on those kites, the slack in the outside lines means that you cannot steer the kite anymore, so your usable windrange is not as big as the Rebel. With the Rebel, when you're racing down the face of a wave, or you don't redirect correctly after a jump, or when you're just fully depowered, you can still move the kite around and put it where you want it to be. 2. And more importantly, there's the feel of a 5-line kite that you simply cannot get with a 4-line kite. I don't generally ride Rebels, like I said no kite suits everyone and the Rebel simply doesn't suit my riding style anymore. But when I go back to the Rebel it always feels so damn good, like an extension of my body. I can feel where it is, it goes exactly where I want it to go... It's like coming home to the woman you've loved your whole life. It is this feeling, along with the fact that it is a high-performance freeride kite, that makes the Rebel the best selling North model year after year.

As far as release dates, we moved the Neo up in production as there's a pretty big winter wave season, and we wanted to get the Neo out at the beginning of this rather than the end. As far as I'm aware the Evo will come out in November as it has done for several years now. We also dropped the Vegas back a month and moved the Dice up a month. This doesn't seem like a huge deal to me but I'm sorry if it affects anyone negatively.

Whoa. I got wicked off track there. Regardless, I hope this helps straighten out your confusion on our lineup. If you have further questions regarding what kite might suit your particular riding style, your first move should be to try to find a demo or a local shop willing to loan you a kite. If there's nothing around you, feel free to hit me up with a PM. I'm always down to talk kite and try to pair you up with a kite that will give you what you're looking for.

-Dan

[JGTR]

Give the OP a round of applause, he has finally worked out that kite companies make money by releasing new and different products every year to confuse punters into buying kites when they don't need them - sure there are different kites for different styles but kite companies go OTT with all the different kites.

OP, you say that you like your Evos so what's the issue? It's only because North have released so many kites that you aren't sure and are thinking about buying new ones when you don't need to.

No other sport has such a confusing amount of gear which prettying all does the same thing.

Naish are just as bad, new kites with new names every year which devalues the second hand equipment forcing punters to buy new kites every year as they are worried about losing too much money. I still fly pre 2010 kites because I could not and still do not see the need to change when the ones I have do the same thing as a brand new one.

Another reason it's not a good idea not to change every year is there is always the odd year now and again that is crap, Vegas 07 and 09? Torch 2013??

[Zepheros]

Dan, thank you for the response and perhaps I stand corrected regarding North's involvement on this forum.

My question specifically is this. If I understand you correctly the evo is essentially a 4 line rebel which is what I have understood is essentially how north marketed the evo past. dan, you say " Basically the same target customer as the Rebel, but on 4 lines", which sort of goes down the same path. I've bought many rebels because of that statement and it is the reason for my frustration because in my experience they are completely different kites.

Could be me, but I do not feel that the rebel performs as you describe.

If there are other north riders that have an opinion please please post and I will check myself.

Thanks Dan, appreciate your response and I do not mean to hijack this thread.

BTW, by no means am I discouraging anyone from buying north products. Although disappointed to some degree regarding marketing, there stuff is excellent.

[SpaceRacer]

Yes Dan, thank you! And Zeph, I agree. I LOVE Rebels and have felt a "cheater" because I just bought two 2014 Evo (7, 10 and looking for a 13) because I DO feel they fly different than Rebels and that Evo is not just a 4 line Rebel. I feel Rebel is pure boost and free ride and hang time. But it is grunty and can take its toll on me when trying to throw in a down loop transition or spending hours with its heavy bar pressure. The Evo despite not boosting as high and probably not having the range seemed smoother and quicker and loopier and more forgiving than the Rebel, which is what I was looking for. It sounds to me like this: Rebel is pure boost and freeride....like an Edge. Rebel bleeds into Evo as Evo is more freestyle. Evo bleeds into Dice as Dice is more wakestyle and wave. Dice bleeds into AND splits off, depending on which way you want to go, into Vegas which is wakestyle and Neo which is Wave. So...while Dice may do everything well, it will not have boost and hang time and range of Rebel or Evo nor the same wakestyle as Vegas or wave performance as Neo. Am I close lol?

[SpaceRacer]

....it's why there seems to be a huge split over Dice right now. People either love them or hate them. Depending on your stance you can argue they do everything well (but is there ever such a thing?) or they are a jack of all trade, master of none.

[Dan-at-Duotone]

Zepheros-

You start your second paragraph with "my question specifically is this" but then I don't see a question. I'm going to try to answer what I think you're trying to ask, but if this doesn't get it, feel free to hit me back with a more direct question...

First off, I'm not sure where you heard in the past (pre-2014) that the Evo was the 4-line version of the Rebel. That could not be further from the truth. North has never claimed that and I would never say anything like that.

In the past, (2013 and earlier), the Evo was NOT marketed as a 4-line version of the Rebel. The Evo was the do-it-all unhooked/hooked in/wave/freestyle/freeride kite. It did all of that, but it was not the best for freeriding... It had a ton of grunt with very little top end and had very heavy bar pressure (similar to most other delta shaped kites on the market.) Previous Evos were VERY different than the Rebel

At the time, 2013 and earlier, we had the Fuse, which we attempted to make feel, fly, and perform just like a Rebel but on 4 lines. The kites gained a cult following due to their jumping ability, but in many other aspects that project failed: we could not make a 4-line kite feel like a 5-line kite.

In 2014, just as we were giving up on the Fuse project, we developed the Dice, which had all of the positive attributes of the Evo (freestyle, unhooked, wave, jumping) but it did not have those big downsides (bar pressure, limited top-end). It basically eclipsed the 2013 Evo. Therefore we completely redesigned the 2014 Evo to be a mix of the 2013 Evo and 2013 Fuse. The 2014 Evo has much lighter bar pressure, much bigger range, jumps better and is much more enjoyable to freeride with than the 2013 Evo. At the same time, it gives up it's unhooking/stable down-the-line surf-ability/freestyle ability. The biggest difference with the Fuse was that we were not trying to make the 2014 Evo feel and look and act exactly like the Rebel, so it becomes its own 4-line freeride machine. I'm not saying that it matches the Rebel in feel or performance... They each have their own abilities. But it does have a similar target audience... Those who want a freeride/boosty kite that will work in waves, flatwater, or chop, in steady or gusty winds, with a large windrange and who do not generally unhook for more than basic raleys.

And just for the record, though I think that they are often pretty accurate (if you can read between the straight-up marketing schtick), I largely ignore the official marketing from North. In fact, when the 2014 Evo first came out they marketed it as freeride/freestyle and I came on this forum and said that I didn't think it was any good unhooked, and that all the response I was seeing to the kite agreed with my thoughts.

As to your being frustrated by having purchased many Rebels thinking they were similar to Evos, that seems silly to me... If you don't like past Rebels don't buy future Rebels. Ken works really hard each year to make sure the Rebel maintains the "Rebel feel" which has been very consistent since 2007. If you don't like the way the kite feels or performs, you're probably not going to ever like that kite (with the exception of those who were unhappy that the 2013 didn't have enough grunt... If that's you, it's worth trying the 2014 or 2015).

If you let me know what you don't like about the Rebel or any other kite I may be able to help steer you towards something you're more happy with. Feel free to PM me with details if you'd like to not bore everyone with your individual kite search details.

-Dan

[Dan-at-Duotone]

SpaceRacer-

I'd agree with what you say re: Rebel being different than Evo. I'm not saying the kites are the same, simply that they are after the same target audience... People who want to ride everywhere, flatwater and waves, and who aren't into unhooked freestyle or hardcore waveriding. I also agree that the Evo is softer through loops. I'd say the biggest difference I notice between the Evo and the Rebel (besides the way they feel) is how they loop. I can get pretty big powered scary-fun loops out of the Rebel, while I'm never afraid to pull the trigger on the Evo because it's such a gentle looper.

Again, same 'target audience' does not mean 'identical performance and feel'. Sorry for any confusion.

-Dan