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Effect of split point on bar trim

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Sandras
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Effect of split point on bar trim

Postby Sandras » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:31 pm

I made the following calculation for the effect of the Split point height on the trim of the bar.

All bars are nowadays designed to have equal lines length when the bar is fully pulled in and there is no trim
(i.e. front lines = back lines, and in that example 22m)

I made the assumption that the kite holds its shape and therefore the distance of the front pigtails will not depend on the split height.
(Although not 100% correct it must be pretty accurate, especially for kites with pulleys and in any case the calculation is able to demonstrate the effect)

This calculation shows one of the (many) negative effects of using a bar with a different Split point.
Something very interesting to notice is how much the sensitivity increases with increasing Split Point Height (i.e. the effect of moving the split point from 2 to 5 is equal to moving it from 11 to 12)
I’m glad I do not have any North kite…
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ciscokitesurfer
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Re: Effect of split point on bar trim

Postby ciscokitesurfer » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:15 pm

I am north kite customer. I have used the low Y connection on my North Neo 2015. The kite fly very well on a north bar with high Y. It fly terrible if you use other bars with low Y.

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Re: Effect of split point on bar trim

Postby unbob » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:54 pm

Also a North kite/bar customer. Desperately seeking comment from Dan! Talk to us Dan!

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Re: Effect of split point on bar trim

Postby edt » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:02 pm

line shortening is not a big deal. When you hook your bar on to the kite this is already taken into account so the knot should be correct for equal length lines. The only thing about a split is that you get a different amount of pressure pinching the kite, if you do the calculations you get something like a kilogram or so more pinching on a high Y than a low Y. This is neither good nor bad. It is something that designers take into account when they build kites. Kites that work on high Y's will flare out too much on a V while kites designed to work on a V will get pinched on a high Y. And of course some kites it doesn't matter at all they fly good on all the bars and aren't really that sensitive to this 1kg or so pressure. As for the what the manufacturers say about this, well kite manufacturers don't "cross dress" their products. They test them for the control bars they were designed to be used with. I sincerely doubt that North tests their kites on a Naish control bar. If you decide mix and match just get out there and do it yourself you'll figure it out soon enough.

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Re: Effect of split point on bar trim

Postby iriejohn » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:21 pm

edt wrote:line shortening is not a big deal. When you hook your bar on to the kite this is already taken into account so the knot should be correct for equal length lines. The only thing about a split is that you get a different amount of pressure pinching the kite, if you do the calculations you get something like a kilogram or so more pinching on a high Y than a low Y. This is neither good nor bad. It is something that designers take into account when they build kites. Kites that work on high Y's will flare out too much on a V while kites designed to work on a V will get pinched on a high Y. And of course some kites it doesn't matter at all they fly good on all the bars and aren't really that sensitive to this 1kg or so pressure. As for the what the manufacturers say about this, well kite manufacturers don't "cross dress" their products. They test them for the control bars they were designed to be used with. I sincerely doubt that North tests their kites on a Naish control bar. If you decide mix and match just get out there and do it yourself you'll figure it out soon enough.
Interestingly this is implicitly a commentary on different kite companies marketing strategies. Image

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Re: Effect of split point on bar trim

Postby edt » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:36 pm

iriejohn wrote: Interestingly this is implicitly a commentary on different kite companies marketing strategies. Image

that's not how I see it. There is an immense amount of work that goes into designing kites and control bars. If it was easy to do then we would never have shitty products. For the R&D arm of a kite company it's hard enough designing something that will work with all of their own stuff, making sure it works seamlessly with other products is too much to ask I think. One thing that they can do but haven't done so far is just use the same standards, you know red on left, push away release, stuff like that. That kind of stuff which doesn't take any research to figure out but they still don't go along with everyone else, that is a commentary on marketing. This other stuff, not cross testing . . . there are only so many hours in a day.

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Re: Effect of split point on bar trim

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:58 pm

This is not correct Sandras.

Your calculations are (most likely havent checked) correct, but it only states how how much the trim changes, which is no big deal as we are all used to adjusting our lines to our kites and personal riding which is extremely different anyways.

You say (assuming we are not into the extremes where pinching changes things of course) that the sensitivity is changed with different split points ?

This is wrong, it is not changed at all - only the trim setting which is no big deal as said.

If the sensitiviy should be changed, the rear/frontline relative movement should be non linear, but they ARE linear, thus no change in sensitiviy at all with different split points.

Go use any bar with your kite, I am sure they all work actually, and which works the best you will find out, or maybe not feel any difference :thumb:

It is not rocket science - eventhough some think so :roll:

8) Peter

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Re: Effect of split point on bar trim

Postby Faxie » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:03 pm

There are no standards because they won't have their selling points then...

Good to see the splil/trim relation in a chart. (I agree with Peter on sensitivity though) I mentioned it before that it's something people should keep in mind when they change to a bar with a different splitpoint. For the average bar wih low V and average bar with high Y you can easily get a 7cm difference, not to mention the pinching. And it's a big deal because a lot of poeple don't realize it. Calibrated bar, so should be good right? But why am I lacking power?/why is my kite backstalling?

For some reason people don't seem to care about that... I don't get it.

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Re: Effect of split point on bar trim

Postby Sandras » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:15 pm

Peter_Frank wrote: You say (assuming we are not into the extremes where pinching changes things of course) that the sensitivity is changed with different split points ?

8) Peter
What I say / mean as sensitivity is that if you move the V from 2 to 3 meters trim changes very little, but if you move the V from 14 to 15 meters the trim changes significantly ( so much that you may not be able to adjust it). Check the matrix

Therefore, bars with a high Y are more "sensitive". i.e. can get de-adjusted (with line extensions, stretch etc) more easily.

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Re: Effect of split point on bar trim

Postby iriejohn » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:06 pm

Faxie wrote:There are no standards because they won't have their selling points then...
+1

Proprietory systems are generally part of the stock in trade of the largest players in a given market and are devices used to maintain control and market share.


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