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foil kites vs inflatable racing kites for racing + foil boards vs race boards?

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rogue_kiteboarder
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Gear: Crazy Fly Raptor LTD, Pivot, Lithium, Neo, Reo, Enduro, C1
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Re: foil kites vs inflatable racing kites for racing + foil boards vs race boards?

Postby rogue_kiteboarder » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:17 pm

Foil/Foil all day


9m Ozone Chrono Ultralight in 8mph wind with an LP foil on a CrazyFly foil board.
FullSizeRender.jpg

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Pump me up
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Re: foil kites vs inflatable racing kites for racing + foil boards vs race boards?

Postby Pump me up » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:43 pm

grigorib wrote:I could ride 15m Turbine (INFLATABLE) in less wind that my 19m Speed3 Deluxe partially because I can work the inflatable a bit. Just this October I stayed upwind in 6-7knots in OBX while 2 guys - one on S3 19m another on S3 21m ended up way downwind at the same time.
This is a familiar story. Large inflatables are MUCH better than ram airs in light wind.
grigorib wrote:"less time to pack a foil" - false statement. Not only it'll take longer to deflate and roll, but then you'll be drying it up and repack again since you'd usually roll over a wet bar/lines
Indeed. And occasionally you'll get a bridle tangle, requiring HOURS of untangling.
grigorib wrote:"foil will not fall down in turbulent wind" - false statement. Any kite will fall down in lulls or "behind trees turbulence" but inflatable will at least will fall down and keep its shape while foils, especially small/thin ones will fall down as a shapeless mess. Been there, done that
Indeed. When ram airs go down (and they do - regularly!) it can be catastrophic and UNSAFE if you're a fair way offshore.
grigorib wrote:"lighter", "more power" - well it depends. My 10m Speed4 Standard weighs exactly the same as my 10m Rally 2012 - 6.2lbs and I squeeze way more power out of the Rally.
Indeed!!
Ignore the lies. Ignore the exaggerations. Ram airs are aerodynamically inferior compared to inflatables. :pump:

rogue_kiteboarder
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Kiting since: 2000
Gear: Crazy Fly Raptor LTD, Pivot, Lithium, Neo, Reo, Enduro, C1
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Re: foil kites vs inflatable racing kites for racing + foil boards vs race boards?

Postby rogue_kiteboarder » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:56 pm

Pump me up wrote:
grigorib wrote:I could ride 15m Turbine (INFLATABLE) in less wind that my 19m Speed3 Deluxe partially because I can work the inflatable a bit. Just this October I stayed upwind in 6-7knots in OBX while 2 guys - one on S3 19m another on S3 21m ended up way downwind at the same time.
This is a familiar story. Large inflatables are MUCH better than ram airs in light wind.
grigorib wrote:"less time to pack a foil" - false statement. Not only it'll take longer to deflate and roll, but then you'll be drying it up and repack again since you'd usually roll over a wet bar/lines
Indeed. And occasionally you'll get a bridle tangle, requiring HOURS of untangling.
grigorib wrote:"foil will not fall down in turbulent wind" - false statement. Any kite will fall down in lulls or "behind trees turbulence" but inflatable will at least will fall down and keep its shape while foils, especially small/thin ones will fall down as a shapeless mess. Been there, done that
Indeed. When ram airs go down (and they do - regularly!) it can be catastrophic and UNSAFE if you're a fair way offshore.
grigorib wrote:"lighter", "more power" - well it depends. My 10m Speed4 Standard weighs exactly the same as my 10m Rally 2012 - 6.2lbs and I squeeze way more power out of the Rally.
Indeed!!
Ignore the lies. Ignore the exaggerations. Ram airs are aerodynamically inferior compared to inflatables. :pump:

The exaggerations and false statements in this post is staggering.

grigorib
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Local Beach: Clinton Lake, IL; Ogden Dunes, IN; Michigan City, IN; South Haven, MI; Tawas, MI; OBX; SPI
Gear: Kites: 2012 Slingshot Rallys, Slingshot Turbine, Flysurfer Speed4, Best Kahoonas, Peter Lynn ARC
Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Spleene Door 59, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, MHL Lift, Slingshot Dwarfcraft 54", Slingshot Coupe 6', Ocean Rodeo Mako, MBS Comp 95x
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Re: foil kites vs inflatable racing kites for racing + foil boards vs race boards?

Postby grigorib » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:56 pm

I would t throw crap at foils.
- First they're beautiful
- Second they stay in air in less wind. Even good old 19m S3 DLX I could fly in 3.5 knots and 9m Peak2 in 2 knots.
- Bridle tangle...rare if you do it right and don't throw bar into the bridles
- Inability to use a kite as a floatation device - a risk as I consider but some might not care. Past October a guy foilng in OBX under 15m Speed5 and doing great ended up with kite in water, somewhat inverted and couldn't relaunch for long long time. I came by twice offering him to tow him back to shore but nope, he wouldn't have accepted. The wind was barely side shore, he must have ended up way, way downwind and wade back. It was getting dark too. I can't force people to accept help.
- "aerodynamically superior" - nah, foils have better weight/area and projected area ratio. They lack structure ocassionally and I was glad to see battens on LE and 2x sections on the trailing edge to help shaping the wing. After all Flysurfer/Skywalk, Ozone, ParAAvis etc. make paragliders. Their R&D's kick ass, don't undermine them.
- that all being said I could ride/jump 17m Core when my 19m S3 won't get me on plane anymore. I know how to go downwind to get apparent speed on a foil, it's just onshore wind wouldn't allow me to go anywhere downwind but I could work the LEI

It's just case by case. Racing foil do great, I'm glad they do.

socommk23
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Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:05 pm
Kiting since: 2001
Local Beach: Hill head
Favorite Beaches: Brean. Uphill. Pembrey. Hill head. Meon shore
Style: Keeping the kite dry....hopefully
Gear: F.one diablo 15, 11 and 8m . Pansh aurora2 15m. Pansh sprints and firsts and Adams and flux .
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Re: foil kites vs inflatable racing kites for racing + foil boards vs race boards?

Postby socommk23 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:04 pm

Pump me up wrote:
grigorib wrote:I could ride 15m Turbine (INFLATABLE) in less wind that my 19m Speed3 Deluxe partially because I can work the inflatable a bit. Just this October I stayed upwind in 6-7knots in OBX while 2 guys - one on S3 19m another on S3 21m ended up way downwind at the same time.
This is a familiar story. Large inflatables are MUCH better than ram airs in light wind.
grigorib wrote:"less time to pack a foil" - false statement. Not only it'll take longer to deflate and roll, but then you'll be drying it up and repack again since you'd usually roll over a wet bar/lines
Indeed. And occasionally you'll get a bridle tangle, requiring HOURS of untangling.
grigorib wrote:"foil will not fall down in turbulent wind" - false statement. Any kite will fall down in lulls or "behind trees turbulence" but inflatable will at least will fall down and keep its shape while foils, especially small/thin ones will fall down as a shapeless mess. Been there, done that
Indeed. When ram airs go down (and they do - regularly!) it can be catastrophic and UNSAFE if you're a fair way offshore.
grigorib wrote:"lighter", "more power" - well it depends. My 10m Speed4 Standard weighs exactly the same as my 10m Rally 2012 - 6.2lbs and I squeeze way more power out of the Rally.
Indeed!!
Ignore the lies. Ignore the exaggerations. Ram airs are aerodynamically inferior compared to inflatables. :pump:
Yawn

hannhann00
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Re: foil kites vs inflatable racing kites for racing + foil boards vs race boards?

Postby hannhann00 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:00 pm

sensitive subject.. It seems odd that many love kiting on one hand but on the other hand hate foils so much (but i appreciate the input regardless).. To me from reading this it sounds like they have their place, and like anything have their pros/ cons. Not better, not worse, just different. I accept they may have some performance advantages but also less safety margin and more complex. So i'll probably take it for what is... I find them interesting and i think once i hit the water more on my normal kites and get better i would like to try it. I only asked this thread as i was surprised when i saw them on TV as i didn't even know they were wisely used and wonders what happened to the old race boards i had seen a few years ago.

cheers to all.

socommk23
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Posts: 287
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:05 pm
Kiting since: 2001
Local Beach: Hill head
Favorite Beaches: Brean. Uphill. Pembrey. Hill head. Meon shore
Style: Keeping the kite dry....hopefully
Gear: F.one diablo 15, 11 and 8m . Pansh aurora2 15m. Pansh sprints and firsts and Adams and flux .
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: foil kites vs inflatable racing kites for racing + foil boards vs race boards?

Postby socommk23 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:12 pm

hannhann00 wrote:sensitive subject.. It seems odd that many love kiting on one hand but on the other hand hate foils so much (but i appreciate the input regardless).. To me from reading this it sounds like they have their place, and like anything have their pros/ cons. Not better, not worse, just different. I accept they may have some performance advantages but also less safety margin and more complex. So i'll probably take it for what is... I find them interesting and i think once i hit the water more on my normal kites and get better i would like to try it. I only asked this thread as i was surprised when i saw them on TV as i didn't even know they were wisely used and wonders what happened to the old race boards i had seen a few years ago.

cheers to all.
Dont take the naysayers seriously. They are trolling. Pumpy is known for it. Even i bit once.
Foils are great kites. I started kitesurfing this year and after 3 weejs kinda started getting the hang of it. As soon as i braved using my 15m aurora2 i got more relaxed and confident with my abilities and really started enjoying it rather than struggling with the lei's.

hannhann00
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Re: foil kites vs inflatable racing kites for racing + foil boards vs race boards?

Postby hannhann00 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:05 pm

socommk23 wrote:
hannhann00 wrote:sensitive subject.. It seems odd that many love kiting on one hand but on the other hand hate foils so much (but i appreciate the input regardless).. To me from reading this it sounds like they have their place, and like anything have their pros/ cons. Not better, not worse, just different. I accept they may have some performance advantages but also less safety margin and more complex. So i'll probably take it for what is... I find them interesting and i think once i hit the water more on my normal kites and get better i would like to try it. I only asked this thread as i was surprised when i saw them on TV as i didn't even know they were wisely used and wonders what happened to the old race boards i had seen a few years ago.

cheers to all.
Dont take the naysayers seriously. They are trolling. Pumpy is known for it. Even i bit once.
Foils are great kites. I started kitesurfing this year and after 3 weejs kinda started getting the hang of it. As soon as i braved using my 15m aurora2 i got more relaxed and confident with my abilities and really started enjoying it rather than struggling with the lei's.
cool thanks for sharing your experience.

sedluk
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Favorite Beaches: Turks and Caicos - Long Bay
Style: Freeriding
Gear: Flysurfer Speed 4 Lotus 12m Special Edition, 15m, 18m, 21m
Flysurfer Speed 5 6m, 9m, 12m, 15m, 18m, 21m

Flysurfer Boost2 7m, 9m, 11m, 13m, 15m, 18m

Flysurfer FlyDoor5 XL
Nobile Separa Flying Carpet Carbon Split Board
Nobile Separa NHP Carbon Split Board 138cm
Nobile Zen Splitboard / 86cm mast, all around foil
Shinn Bronq 136, Shinn Bronq XL 150cm, 145cm
Mystic Supporter Harness
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Re: foil kites vs inflatable racing kites for racing + foil boards vs race boards?

Postby sedluk » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:56 am

For the person who only wants 1-3 kites and one board. I think an inflatable and twin tip are the way to go. Many people will have more equipment and will enjoy trying different kites and boards.

Some people will add a foil kite and enjoy it and some will stick with inflatables. It seem odd to me that some people would be against a particular kind of kite or board like pumpy. I say more the better and enjoy all of them.

I would encourage people to try a foil kite, directional board and a foil board. I understand that some people spend their time in places where a foil kite or foil board is not practical. I change what I use based on the location and the wind.

A foil kite is not for everyone. While in the South of France at a beach where they are very popular, a French guy explained that anyone can fly a LEI, a foil kite is for someone that wants a relationship with their kite. This was at a beach with lots of open sand and lots of light wind days and deep water. At this beach, a foil kite and a foil board was a tempting combo.

I think a foil kite works best for someone who is methodical and also for a location with a good launch site. Just like a foil board is better suited for deeper water.

I am currently enjoying a strapless directional board on higher wind days and a strapless foil board when conditions are lighter. I prefer a foil kite when conditions allow and can have a nice day with a LEI when it is better suited.

Tone
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Posts: 2013
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Re: foil kites vs inflatable racing kites for racing + foil boards vs race boards?

Postby Tone » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:09 pm

gbrungra wrote:The real question:
What the heck am I going to do with my 2012 naish Venturi race board?

Bought it used to free ride in light wind. Never got the hang of it. Much narrower than modern race boards, so it always felt like it was about to break my ankles...
put it on the wall. From memory it's a pretty board.


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