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Advantages & Superiority of Ram Airs

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Tone
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Re: Advantages & Superiority of Ram Airs

Postby Tone » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:18 pm

TheRussian wrote:LOL.... does PMU live in a box with Skank Hunt ?

Here's my take -
1) An appreciation for spaghetti. Bloody right - swim in and dont pack down very well - then be prepared for the unmitigated shit storm of dacron !
2) launching can be anything from a piece of cake to a death defying/potentially life shortening getting shot out of a Cannon - and that's with a Chrono 2 - god knows what the earlier designs must have been like !
3) jumps even powered are average - yes floaty, but no more height than on an Ozone edge - unless you are proficient at hydro-foiling & then the boosting appears extremely impressive (not for me though).

But in light-winds, the 13m Chrono 2 is nothing short of incredible on a hydrofoil, you can go out and have a good time in the feintest puff of wind - but be warned, if its 6-7 knots and drops 2 knots you have to swim in unless you are very talented.

As for the tech-fest/Woo/logarithm nonsense - the WOO is a bit of fun
You're almost right apart from boosting. The Chrono 2 I can't talk about but the Speed/sonic etc all jump very well - my 9m Sonic will and has out jumped my 10 Edge in the same conditions. I'll have to come and see you at some point and give you a go.

That's the issue with foils, too many people with no real experience commenting on them without using them, no office Russian :)

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Re: Advantages & Superiority of Ram Airs

Postby plummet » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:06 pm

Tone wrote:
TheRussian wrote:LOL.... does PMU live in a box with Skank Hunt ?

Here's my take -
1) An appreciation for spaghetti. Bloody right - swim in and dont pack down very well - then be prepared for the unmitigated shit storm of dacron !
2) launching can be anything from a piece of cake to a death defying/potentially life shortening getting shot out of a Cannon - and that's with a Chrono 2 - god knows what the earlier designs must have been like !
3) jumps even powered are average - yes floaty, but no more height than on an Ozone edge - unless you are proficient at hydro-foiling & then the boosting appears extremely impressive (not for me though).

But in light-winds, the 13m Chrono 2 is nothing short of incredible on a hydrofoil, you can go out and have a good time in the feintest puff of wind - but be warned, if its 6-7 knots and drops 2 knots you have to swim in unless you are very talented.

As for the tech-fest/Woo/logarithm nonsense - the WOO is a bit of fun
You're almost right apart from boosting. The Chrono 2 I can't talk about but the Speed/sonic etc all jump very well - my 9m Sonic will and has out jumped my 10 Edge in the same conditions. I'll have to come and see you at some point and give you a go.

That's the issue with foils, too many people with no real experience commenting on them without using them, no office Russian :)
I'm thinking that in lighter winds you can definatly boost bigger on a foil. However as the wind builds the entrained power in the foils make them hard to hold and edge and boost real big in stupid high winds. I'm thinking that lei's take the win over 28 knots.

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Re: Advantages & Superiority of Ram Airs

Postby socommk23 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:24 pm

I recon over 28kts, pmu is just as full of air as he is under 4kts. But if you edge hard enough, pmu is great for boosting, the same thread time and time again.
But that just my partially educated opinion, i have never flown a pmu of my own as reviews say its temprimental at times and i dont fancy investing in one that doesnt improve each year like all the others.

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Re: Advantages & Superiority of Ram Airs

Postby Tone » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:24 pm

plummet wrote:
Tone wrote:
TheRussian wrote:LOL.... does PMU live in a box with Skank Hunt ?

Here's my take -
1) An appreciation for spaghetti. Bloody right - swim in and dont pack down very well - then be prepared for the unmitigated shit storm of dacron !
2) launching can be anything from a piece of cake to a death defying/potentially life shortening getting shot out of a Cannon - and that's with a Chrono 2 - god knows what the earlier designs must have been like !
3) jumps even powered are average - yes floaty, but no more height than on an Ozone edge - unless you are proficient at hydro-foiling & then the boosting appears extremely impressive (not for me though).

But in light-winds, the 13m Chrono 2 is nothing short of incredible on a hydrofoil, you can go out and have a good time in the feintest puff of wind - but be warned, if its 6-7 knots and drops 2 knots you have to swim in unless you are very talented.

As for the tech-fest/Woo/logarithm nonsense - the WOO is a bit of fun
You're almost right apart from boosting. The Chrono 2 I can't talk about but the Speed/sonic etc all jump very well - my 9m Sonic will and has out jumped my 10 Edge in the same conditions. I'll have to come and see you at some point and give you a go.

That's the issue with foils, too many people with no real experience commenting on them without using them, no office Russian :)
I'm thinking that in lighter winds you can definatly boost bigger on a foil. However as the wind builds the entrained power in the foils make them hard to hold and edge and boost real big in stupid high winds. I'm thinking that lei's take the win over 28 knots.
No. You're wrong.

Foils are easier to hold in higher winds once they are up.

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Re: Advantages & Superiority of Ram Airs

Postby plummet » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:38 pm

Tone wrote:
plummet wrote:
Tone wrote:
You're almost right apart from boosting. The Chrono 2 I can't talk about but the Speed/sonic etc all jump very well - my 9m Sonic will and has out jumped my 10 Edge in the same conditions. I'll have to come and see you at some point and give you a go.

That's the issue with foils, too many people with no real experience commenting on them without using them, no office Russian :)
I'm thinking that in lighter winds you can definatly boost bigger on a foil. However as the wind builds the entrained power in the foils make them hard to hold and edge and boost real big in stupid high winds. I'm thinking that lei's take the win over 28 knots.
No. You're wrong.

Foils are easier to hold in higher winds once they are up.
Well that's not my experience. And i've had alot of experience with foils. But to be fair I havent sent a 7m or smaller foil on the water in 30+ knots. So i'm just guessing. The last small foil i flew was a 6m r1. That was in the buggy in a 25-35 knot storm. It was a freaken animal!,,,, But I wasn't sending it for jumps. I was blasting in sand dunes.

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Re: Advantages & Superiority of Ram Airs

Postby Kamikuza » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:49 am

I'm with Tone. I usually just hang on to the 15 or 12 though...

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Re: Advantages & Superiority of Ram Airs

Postby Tone » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:55 am

plummet wrote:
Tone wrote:
plummet wrote:
I'm thinking that in lighter winds you can definatly boost bigger on a foil. However as the wind builds the entrained power in the foils make them hard to hold and edge and boost real big in stupid high winds. I'm thinking that lei's take the win over 28 knots.
No. You're wrong.

Foils are easier to hold in higher winds once they are up.
Well that's not my experience. And i've had alot of experience with foils. But to be fair I havent sent a 7m or smaller foil on the water in 30+ knots. So i'm just guessing. The last small foil i flew was a 6m r1. That was in the buggy in a 25-35 knot storm. It was a freaken animal!,,,, But I wasn't sending it for jumps. I was blasting in sand dunes.
Sorry, I was a bit blunt yesterday.

my 9 sonic is really quite easy to hold in high winds, because the AR is so high when you edge against it, it really does sit very far into the wind. When you send it though, good God, it rips you off the water!

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Re: Advantages & Superiority of Ram Airs

Postby joriws » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:06 am

kiterocky wrote: Somebody have to prove the correct misure of the woo... Or its only faith in the woo accellerometer.. Ne ed to test the accurancy with external method.. Do the jump with the woo and then analyse the pics or video with some System to check the distance.. Until this the woo its only faith...
Pics or video are not good. Only accurate way is to use tachymeter (surveying, not a clock :) ) but it has also problems on aiming fast moving target on the sky to exact CoG. For olympics and pole vault it is good to measure that bar is at correct height within millimeters accuracy or how far the javelin went or long jumper or....

But the point in normal distribution graph is that all jumps were measured same device. So all measurements have same accuracy problems. Also all meters are "woo meters" which might not be close to SI meters. But in that day, wind, many jumps, 3 best reported jumps per kiter the device awards 30% higher mean of jumps with similar distribution (standard deviation). That is the story.

So based on that I think I have disproven your claim "LEIs are better everywhere else than mountain backcountry and racing".

--

For example Zoon visited Sweden for Best-kite brand event: http://www.surfspot.se/news/youri. There was "big air" competition. Local guy participated with 11m Sonic based on screenshot (check normal dist graph between 11m and 15m Sonic) and won the big air only by jumping a couple jumps. Zoon tried his best to defend his employer's brand but could not match. Capiche?

I took a screencap and used FB translate from event page. Öland is not "library" but an island in Baltic sea :). https://www.facebook.com/events/1424034 ... discussion. So how can one of the Worlds best be beaten only with 7 registered jumps when Zoon jumps 83 times. Other might be good at jumping and another has top notch technique and all the time to find best gust at site.
zoon_defeated.png

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Re: Advantages & Superiority of Ram Airs

Postby kjorn » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:30 pm

9m jump isn't massive, sounds more like a lucky gust.

We regularly put the Woo, PIQ, and xsensr on the same board and get similar results.

Why do some of you think its so hard to calibrate the Woo? These guys are engineers, I bet they have a million ways to calibrate and check each woo... put it in a machine that flings it up 5m, 100 times, does it read 100 5m jumps? Do the same for 5.1m, then 5.2m, etc until you get to 50m job done. Why do you thin that they have not done this? Have you never met an engineer before?

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Re: Advantages & Superiority of Ram Airs

Postby joriws » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:16 am

kjorn wrote:9m jump isn't massive, sounds more like a lucky gust.

We regularly put the Woo, PIQ, and xsensr on the same board and get similar results.

Why do some of you think its so hard to calibrate the Woo? These guys are engineers, I bet they have a million ways to calibrate and check each woo... put it in a machine that flings it up 5m, 100 times, does it read 100 5m jumps? Do the same for 5.1m, then 5.2m, etc until you get to 50m job done. Why do you thin that they have not done this? Have you never met an engineer before?
yep 9m is not massive but it was the highest achieved (by woo measure) at conditions they had that moment at Öland. Normal summer in Baltics winds are under 10m/s or 20kn. Maybe once a summer we get >10m/s wind. That's why I think woo's global stats are insane. Why should I at Scandinavia 6m/s wind "compete" against guys jumping at Cape Town in 20m/s winds because there is no competition?

--

About accelerometer and height measurement and calibration.
- Accelerometer reports acceleration (usually) as a 16-bit number (65536 values) from given resolution (±1g, ±4g, ±12g, ±24g etc).
- Acceleration is digitized (ADC) so it has quantization noise. ADC-value is not integrated between two samples but derivate (short integral actually how ADCs work) at certain time. Remember ADC is a comparator where it compares ADC's internal electical voltage against measured voltage. If internal is less, ADC will add voltage and re-compare as long as required. And at the same time input signal voltage is constantly changing as time goes on.
- Feel free to download different 6/9 axis IMU specification sheets for study.
- Accelerometer (and magnetometer & gyroscope) output needs to be analyzed what is most obvious orientation of Earth's coordinates aka gravity field
- Matrix needs to be done with estimated rotation values to calculate acceleration on earth's coordinates. Keyword: Quaternions or Euler angles.
- Most accurate output would be via Kalman filtering but woo does not have additional sensors to increase prediction accuracy of Kalman(?)
- Board is shaking/rotating all the time
- Now at jump you need to determine threshold amount of acceleration upwards in earths gravity field. (minimum value to determine it was a jump)
- Then you need to use some algorithm to backtrack to release-point (freefall sports like snowboarding is easy because it is time when freefall begins)
- Kicker - acceleration changes upwards and upward speed on wave bottom. But jump begins when you are airborne, not at wave bottom.
- From that point you must begin integrate acceleration to speed
- Re-integrate speed to position (= height)

So actually the IMU algorithm for kite sports is not that simple as you Kjorn want to imagine it to be. That is why Woo ver1 and Woo ver2 gives out different readings. Different hardware, different software etc.


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