Advice for buying 1st Foil Kite

[Mossy 757]

I don't think any other brand out there gives this kind of warranty

Not even Flysurfer gives out that kind of warranty!

"The Sonic2 kites are excluded from 12-months Free Repair Warranty"

^ found at bottom of Flysurfer's website

[Adventure Logs]

I don't think any other brand out there gives this kind of warranty

Not even Flysurfer gives out that kind of warranty!

"The Sonic2 kites are excluded from 12-months Free Repair Warranty"

^ found at bottom of Flysurfer's website

Yep and if you would have read my next post I wrote that the sonics aren't covered because they are race kites. But with the Speed vs Chrono debate, the warranty is a HUGE plus for me.

[Matteo V]

PLEASE don't buy a foil (ram air) kite. They are aerodynamically inferior to inflatables and have REAL problems in light winds. Lemme know if you'd like details.
Pumpy

I'll feed him


Me want details! Pump me up!

[Pump me up]

Me want details! Pump me up!

Thanks for asking Matteo. Since the principal reason for wanting to buy an inferior RAM AIR (FOIL) kite seems to be light winds, I'll focus on that first:

LIGHT WINDS
Ram airs are inferior light wind kites for the following reasons:
a) Excessive drag (bridles, lack of internal rigidity, excessive friction at the "boundary layer", and trailing edge thickness), compromising the Lift/Drag ratio
b) VERY slow turning
c) Inertia.
d) Bridle failures and tangling
e) Wind dropouts and gear failure
ALL kiters experiences a few gear failures (eg broken lines) and COMPLETE wind dropouts every year. Inflatables can be "sailed" (self-rescued) or swum to shore. If things are REALLY bad, the inflatable structure can support your weight, eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2368004

In contrast, ALL ram airs eventually become hopelessly waterlogged, un-relaunchable, and unable to support body weight.
eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2346569
eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2358958&p=608890#p608890
eg viewtopic.php?t=2359156&p=617396
eg viewtopic.php?t=2358602&p=704984
eg http://www.foilzone.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8130

The following is an example of "diraklib's" experience with ram airs in wind dropouts:

"the SA-19 is huge and can whack you silly if you let it get down wind of you in a low wind launch. It is downright scary - be ready with the QR at all times if not up and riding!!! I can't say I agree with claims that you can ride the SA-19 in anything lower than a steady 8 knots. I made a personal choice to not ride the SA-19 any more. It went down twice in lulls and managed to bow-tie on the way down - there was no way to relaunch. I was not as lucky as others that self rescued. My kite was full of water by the time I dragged my very tired and frustrated a$$ to shore. It sounds simple, "wrap the lines around the bar, fold the kite in half, roll it up on your board and paddle in"... noooo... there are lines everywhere under water that wrap around your feet as you are trying to manipulate the kite. You just pray that a gust won't pop the kite up and slice of an appendage. The kite ... is just too scary when it goes down. My attitude now is - if my LEI won't fly, I shouldn't be on the water. Anyone interested in a slightly used SA2-19m??? Cheap???"

For the full epiphany, checkout viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2360979&start=40

The following is the experience of "pmaggie" with ram airs in wind dropouts:

I rode foils only a few times, so these are really my two cents. The problem I experieced with foils in very light wind when they suddenly fall. In my home spot, in very light wind days, sometimes the wind really goes to zero for 1 minute or so. When this happen, both foils and inflatables suddenly fall. In this cases, my inflatable, since it's far heavier than a foil, fall directly into the water with no line tangling and I just have to wait for a gust to relaunch (when possible, that means about 7 knots for my Core 17). When a foil falls with no wind, being very light, it's common that its lines roll over it and became completely tangled. At that point, it's not that easy to relaunch.
The other big problem with foils in very light wind is when the wind completely stops. With an inflatable, you just get your kite and swim attached to your little floating boat. With a foil, you have 20 sqm of tissue to carry home with you!

For the full story, checkout: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2376332

Here is the experience of "FredBGG" with a line failure:

The other day I had a front line fail.
Wind was slightly off shore...
I really needed a tow to the beach.
I had the kite safely on the 5th line folded in half (flysurfer Foil)
I waved down two kiters.... both expert judging by their riding.
Both refused to help.
One even yelled if you can't relaunch it's your problem.
Anyway after a difficult ordeal in the surf and current I got back to the beach.
I had to rest a bit but my board was still out there.

For the full admission viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2362065
The problem here isn't with the other kiters, it's with Fred's choice of kite. If Fred had an inflatable, he would have been able to "self-rescue" by grabbing the tips and "sailing" to shore. The other kiters refusing to help is understandable: Fred opted for less safe equipment. It's his problem and he shouldn't impose on others to make up for his equipment deficiencies. Also, towing a ram air to shore is like towing a sleeping bag full of water - difficult and dangerous.

f) 8 knot limit
Despite the lies of ram lovers, you won't really get going on any kite (ram air OR inflatable) unless the wind is over ~ 7-8 knots and won't really have fun until ~ 10 knots.

This video may prove the 7-8 knot low limit. Both kites - the 21m Flysurfer and the smaller (?17m) inflatable are FAILING TO STAY UPWIND and, by the look of the flag, there's about ? (hard to say) 8 knots of wind.

It's interesting to note that the ram air and the inflatable are both struggling IN SIMILAR CONDITIONS.

Ram lovers have been shown to lie repeatedly about their light wind capabilities:
eg "jumping 8m in 8 knots" viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6349
eg viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2350141&p=539227#p539227
eg

My Speed 3 19 DL gives up under 5 knots... - Gunnar Biniasch

Wind moving at <7 knots (13km/h) simply cannot deliver enough power for ANY kite to perform; certainly NO KITE WILL PERFORM AT 5 KNOTS. Gunnar's exaggerations can be found at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2361421

h ) BIG INFLATABLES are better than BIG FLYSURFERS in Light Winds[/color]
See this thread about the poor light wind properties of Flysurfer viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2349064 , in particular:

I read all the same reports and reviews that everyone else here probably read and spent the "big bucks" for the S2-19, but to be honest was extremely disappointed and sold it…Flysurfers just plain suck in gusty, light winds…I had a hard time keeping the thing in the air much less getting enough power from it to go on the water… A couple months later I got an 07 Waroo 20m…and it is the best 20m I've ever flown. I am able to fly it in winds I would never have thought possible.

i)

Pumpy ………………………

[socommk23]

PLEASE don't buy a foil (ram air) kite. They are aerodynamically inferior to inflatables and have REAL problems in light winds. Lemme know if you'd like details.
Pumpy

I'll feed him


Me want details! Pump me up!

You should be banned as should pumpy. This is so damn boring now. Not even slightly entertaining.

[nate76]

HQ had a good start to the Matrixx series, but then they dummed down the kite in the next version. They did that with the Montana series too - Good kites in mid versions, then beginner kites with the same name later.

HQ has done an excellent job with the latest version of the Matrixx (Matrixx III). I've got time on all sizes both on snow and water, and have been really impressed - definitely the best generation to date. I've been especially pleased with the 9m, and I'm not typically a 9m kinda guy. Really surprised at how much float it has for its size.

Some folks felt that HQ made the Matrixx almost overly simple and a bit boring in the 2nd generation. They came back with the 3rd generation which has a leaner airfoil cross-section and slightly higher aspect ratio. The result is that the Matrixx 3 is quite a bit quicker than the Matrixx2, with a sportier feel; yet it still retains the great lightwind ability of the Matrixx2. There is no back-stalling like you would sometimes see on the original Matrixx. Stability and turn rate are some of the best on the market due to its slightly lower Aspect ratio than most other closed-cell kites. Still retains the signature float the Matrixx has always been known for. For someone who already has kiting experience, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the Matrixx3 as an excellent all-around kite for both snow and water.

And both the Montana 8 and 9 generation kites are fantastic. Very quick, sporty kites - the M9 is going to have a faster turn rate, livelier feel and lower bar pressure than a comparable generation Frenzy - which may be good or bad depending on your preferences.

[Matteo V]

HQ has some good kites and has had some GREAT kites in the past. I am not up on the Matrixx III but I have the origional Matrixx, and the Matrixx II.

The Matrixx I was way ahead of it's time. It is an advanced kite with lots of controls and a classic foil kite feel that has no dumbing down of its punch. You could not hand this kite off to a beginner as they would get hurt.

The Matrixx II was about as exciting as the Flysurfer Speed (II and III). I never could downloop it when snowkiting on high angle slopes. It just would not turn fast enough. What was it good for? Sweet flat glides. You could pick your angle of decent up to some amazingly flat ones that I could not even replicate with the Chrono II. On top of that, you could hand an 18m Matrixx II off to a beginner and they would stay in control. In the same winds, you could not give them a Chrono II or Matrixx I safely.

The change in the Montana series was severe when it switched over to the Montana 8. The Montana 7 was an advanced kite that was capable but a little twitchy. But it would do what you wanted if you did things right. The Montana 8 was another kite you could hand off to a beginner with no worries. You could not safely do that with a Montana 7 as the beginner would be a snowball in seconds.

At a demo, I was using the 14m Montana 8 and happy with how it was handling the light 8mph winds. Then someone else wanted it and I went for the Apex (III?) 11m. I was actually able to kiteloop backroll the 11m Apex with greater ease than the 14m Montana 8. Thus my opinion that the Apex, with it's instant feedback for what you are doing wrong, is a more advanced kite than the newer Montana (8) series. IMHO, the Montana 8 is a good substitute for the best beginner open cell foil of all time - the Ozone "Access". But the Montana 5, 6, and 7, were better than the Ozone "Frenzy" series.

Now with the Chrono II and Sonic II, foil kites have advanced to the point where my past experience is no longer applicable. Kind of like guys that talk about how "C" kites used to work back around 2000. We are just past that.

[Matt Air]

I would strongly consider the Kitetech kites. I bought a 9m and 12m several months ago as my first foil kites and obdurately love them. They are not as high aspect as other foils out there like Ozone, Flysurfer, F one but this makes the kite easier to turn and relaunch. I found the control similar to my tube kites, slightly slower but more lift and hangtime. I originally got them to pair with my foil boards, but I have really enjoyed boosting with them on my TT.

For ur weight and preference for power, the 15m would be a good choice. A friend has that kite and I have ridden it up to 20 mph though that was too much for me to enjoy. The bridles are thicker, so easy to manage for a foil kite novice like myself. Relaunch is amazing, better than my tube kites, especially in light winds. The kite also fills up on launch almost instantly, in seconds. Sonic 2 looks amazing, better speed and lift, but cost is higher and wouldn't be as user friendly. Used foil kites always a risk, moreso than tube kites. Laszlo at kitehydrofoilmiami has ridden all the kites mentioned in this forum and can give u more insight. Good luck! Foil kites are a blast!!

Matt