light wind surfboard vs foil board

[Greenturtle]

The volume in a big surfboard keeps you up and riding in lulls where the door sinks. Bottom surface is also way bigger, so planes earlier regardless. Select fins carefully and drag is minimized.

I maintain that a -longboard- will go easy upwind when the door doesn't. It does for me.
Not saying better, just another option for when the wind subsides (whatever kite size being used at the time) and the door is no longer going upwind. Or just as something to change up the experience once in a while.

The sup example was just to illustrate the extreme.

[RadDrDuke]

Mowing the lawn blows....except on a foil! Ditch the surfboard in lightwind and get a foil, you will be stoked for 10-15knots

[juandesooka]

I would have assumed that with foils coming of age and progressing into the mainstream, a door would be pretty much as obsolete as a race board. This thread proves me wrong.

If it's light wind without waves I'm foiling. If light wind with waves I still hold out hope for the 17m and high volume surfboard. ....but realistically it's usually better to just surf at that point.

[Matteo V]

The volume in a big surfboard keeps you up and riding in lulls where the door sinks. Bottom surface is also way bigger, so planes earlier regardless........

I maintain that a -longboard- will go easy upwind when the door doesn't. It does for me.

This is pretty much a re-hash of the old debate on volume in kitesurfboards. Volume in kiteboards is not an asset, but more of a hindrance.

The flaw in the statement "Bottom surface is also way bigger, so planes earlier regardless" becomes apparent when you scale to extremely large sizes AND take into account additional drag caused by that extremely large surface area. Think about scaling up to a 5ft by 20ft board in a new material that holds the weight to the same as current models of doors. The increased wetted surface area may even be large enough to prevent planing on this "imaginary" giant board, even though a door would still be able to plane. Wetted surface area is the killer, and this is why there is an upper limit to the size of planing surface you can have with a given kite and counter weight (the kiter).

Greenturtle - I applaud you skill with a longobard. Given it's narrower width vs a SUP board, you are definitely on the right board to make some upwind headway. But the increased wetted surface, and weight, of the longboard is holding you back. It is in the physics of the situation.

If you have enough power to use the kite to get you out of the water onto the board, then you have enough power to instantly (just) plane with only the rear surface area of the board that contacts the water when you are up on a full plane. The rest of the nose of the board that is out of the water, is luggage. Windsurfers have been through this debate and shortboards won out over longboards a long time ago. Longboard windsurfers are still fun, and do go faster when functioning in displacement mode. But shorter boards (no nose luggage) will go faster if winds/sail size allow planing.

[bragnouff]

I would have assumed that with foils coming of age and progressing into the mainstream, a door would be pretty much as obsolete as a race board. This thread proves me wrong.

Unless your local spots are shallow, or temporarily impossible to foil due to a combination of large swell, low profile beach and direct onshore wind. In these cases, the door will still be able to deliver.
Also, it's Waaaaaaay more fun to slash seaweed with a door, than with a foil! Very niche market for very targeted conditions, which is why it should only be a cheap addition to the quiver. A plywood finless DIY option makes so much more sense than the full carbon, 4 finned products of Spleene and others, that sell for as much or more than any other board. The noodlish torsional flex in the plywood ones is partly why it can rocket upwind without displacing too much water. Anyway, it's been a few years now that mine collects dust, as mother nature is generous enough to provide plenty of good conditions that don't warrant using one.

The race board, we can agree, is much more obsolete.

[Greenturtle]

I don't feel held back by adding the longboard to the quiver of kiteboards. On the contrary it opens possibilities to more styles and conditions. Such as catching small unbroken swells with kite depowered, then getting upwind again, when only few minutes before, barely holding ground on 160cm door. (Maybe you guys use bigger ones?)
Riding longboard with kite is similar to surfing it, move feet around on the board a lot to dial in. As for upwind drive, move feet forward keeping the nose down. Then engage the full length of the rail.
It’s cumbersome compared to door, no question, and its very slow compared to foil, but it does some different things, and needs very little power to shine.

I really only bring it up because a lot of people already own one. Or can be purchased cheap at a garage sale. Not true for foils.

I like all kinds of boards pretty much equally for what they do (including door), and love changing up during sessions as conditions or mood changes. I like to foil too but don’t always like being limited to deep and weed free water, and I personally can’t ride one in the surf.

[joriws]

The volume in a big surfboard keeps you up and riding in lulls where the door sinks. Bottom surface is also way bigger, so planes earlier regardless. Select fins carefully and drag is minimized.

The flaw in the statement "Bottom surface is also way bigger, so planes earlier regardless" becomes apparent when you scale to extremely large sizes AND take into account additional drag caused by that extremely large surface area. Think about scaling up to a 5ft by 20ft board in a new material that holds the weight to the same as current models of doors. The increased wetted surface area may even be large enough to prevent planing on this "imaginary" giant board, even though a door would still be able to plane. Wetted surface area is the killer, and this is why there is an upper limit to the size of planing surface you can have with a given kite and counter weight (the kiter).

This is partly true when we are talking about displacement boards like thick boards. The length comes in equation of hull speed of displacement hulls which is quite simple formula with squere rooted lenght times constant. And more effective on powerless (gravity acceleration only) surfboards to have surfing/planing speed on face of wave. It needs to have volume on aft to lift aft up with a wave to have you accelerated by gravity down the face. Then it needs to overcome displacement hull drag at aft (digging) by moving weight forward etc. You know the drill..

But doors are planing hulls. If kite dive can lift you out of water and you have board correct angle you can accelerate & plane and start having upwind angles on good doors. Yes you cannot launch them without kite to plane-speed like you can with surfboard on wave.

Here is another example *VIDEO* of *me* doing stuff to back my statements here up. I am waiting a video from you to show similar things on longboard and low wind..

On Flydoor XL and 8kn'ish surface wind you can even start *planing* with Flydoor on kite up-stroke after reverse relaunch. It shows directly how good doors are handling on ultra-low-wind <10kn. Combine this with ULW trick video I posted a few messages ago.

https://vimeo.com/23810913

[Greenturtle]

I personally don’t have any video. But I found a couple on youtube, if I can figure out how to post them ...
Mostly they are not trying for upwind and feet are far back, but anyway heres some

This guy claims 12m switchblade in 10kt
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i0VpiVWzLFA

Being silly on a (finless)windsurf board in claimed 8kt
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u1calMR_iEQ

No wind speed claimed but shows footwork
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xiB7w6vtHHc

[Greenturtle]

Joriws- have you tried a longboard with your speed3 back to back against the door?

[peterbjarke]

For a surf board the surfdoor has great low-end/upwind ability: https://www.spleene-kiteboarding.com/wp ... kiteboard/

I bought it to have a strong surf board that can be used for strapped jumps.

Cheers,

Peter