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matth wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:57 am

IWB2 wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:39 pm

matth wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:22 pm

The IDS was good but had a serious flaw. The kite would not always roll onto its back like it was supposed to. If the kite was flagged in strong wind and would not roll onto its back it still had a lot of pull. The trick was to swim towards kite to release tension or pull in center lines then release, both would usually get the roll over bridal to kick in. In the end it just wasn't as effective as a 1 line flag or 5th.

If the IDS had a "serious flaw" i never experienced any problems over the hundreds of selfrescue/land that where done in lessons or in practice in any of the IDS SB models between (09-13). The SB 95%+ of the time went LE down and the kite was out cold. If it went into the U position the pull was far less than any single 4 line flagging system due to the center balanced pull. I had the the SB IDS flagged in very overpowered winds and it always did as it was supposed to do and never any heavy pulling. In my experience with the IDS i never had to swim towards the kite because of too much power...the issue was more that persons were not pushing the bar out to the end of the IDS line to get the kite to roll over. Maybe in super light winds you took a step forward to get the kite to roll which was a non issue.

I disagree it had less pull when it wouldn't roll over than a single line flag. It also required a more complicated bridal to work.
At this point I don't think anyone offers a 2 line flag.

A single flagging 4 line kite, which flags off 1 of the front lines will have the kite exposing one side of the kite to more wind which will naturally pull more than a kite which is flagging directly from the center like an IDS or 5 line. While the IDS may have been complicated to design, it was effortless to operate and made self rescues and self lands super easy regardless of the wind strength which addresses the original posters questions... see link which shows how effortless it was to land an IDS SB. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia-CmjKvUAI .

IWB2 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:30 am

.... see link which shows how effortless it was to land an IDS SB. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia-CmjKvUAI .

That is not self landing. That's releasing to the safety. If your starting point is releasing to safety then you've used up all your options from the start. You have no fallback position. Even worse, you haven't learned anything. You've just dumped the kite and hoped it's going to work.

PS None of the videos in this thread show true strong winds. They're all light to moderate. In strong winds you have sand blasting your legs and boards flipping down the beach.

I used kites with IDS for 10 years. They worked fine, but occasionally the kite could roll over and fly upside down. It was easy enough to tweak a front line and turn the kite over to land it.

I am now using low-V kites with a single front flagging line. In the vast majority of cases working the upper front line parks the kite very neatly on its nose. The technique is easier and the success rate is much higher than that for IDS kites. Unfortunately, if it goes wrong the kite can flop around a bit more vigorously.

No matter what system you use and what technique you use there will be self landings with less than optimal results. An experienced kiter should have sufficient understanding to be able to cope with any behaviour of the kite during self launch and landing. It's not that hard.

It is unreasonable to expect that one specific technical implementation is going to result in zero incident kite behaviour. The very nature of kiting means that almost every session involves some sort of problem solving. The only 100 percent reliable method is to embrace that aspect and develop the skills to solve the problems when they occur.

For me, on a 40+ knot day the first decision is to choose a site that allows plenty of room for dealing with problems and mishaps. Rule 1 of all extreme sports is to have an escape route and to protect that escape route at all costs. For strong days I choose big wide beaches with plenty of run out room and plenty of room to release if the shit hits the fan. It never has, but it's better to have a plan than no plan at all.

OzBungy wrote:

IWB2 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:30 am

.... see link which shows how effortless it was to land an IDS SB. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia-CmjKvUAI .

That is not self landing. That's releasing to the safety. If your starting point is releasing to safety then you've used up all your options from the start. You have no fallback position. Even worse, you haven't learned anything. You've just dumped the kite and hoped it's going to work....

Landing is landing, QR or otherwise. If your QR does not land the kite 100% sure every time in all conditions, so that you have to "hope it's going to work", you don't have any safety options for a start.

Some kites do that. I.e. Peter Lynn ARCs only have 1 landing mechanism: punch out to single front line. Works 100% always in any condition. If your kite does not do this, it's not suitable for kiting solo > pick another kite for going solo.

I agree downwind space is your friend. Landing the kite in the water when shore is dangerous is a good option, kite sticks nicely to the water surface

OzBungy wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:37 am

IWB2 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:30 am

.... see link which shows how effortless it was to land an IDS SB. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia-CmjKvUAI .

That is not self landing. That's releasing to the safety. If your starting point is releasing to safety then you've used up all your options from the start. You have no fallback position. Even worse, you haven't learned anything. You've just dumped the kite and hoped it's going to work.

PS None of the videos in this thread show true strong winds. They're all light to moderate. In strong winds you have sand blasting your legs and boards flipping down the beach.

I used kites with IDS for 10 years. They worked fine, but occasionally the kite could roll over and fly upside down. It was easy enough to tweak a front line and turn the kite over to land it.

I am now using low-V kites with a single front flagging line. In the vast majority of cases working the upper front line parks the kite very neatly on its nose. The technique is easier and the success rate is much higher than that for IDS kites. Unfortunately, if it goes wrong the kite can flop around a bit more vigorously.

No matter what system you use and what technique you use there will be self landings with less than optimal results. An experienced kiter should have sufficient understanding to be able to cope with any behaviour of the kite during self launch and landing. It's not that hard.

It is unreasonable to expect that one specific technical implementation is going to result in zero incident kite behaviour. The very nature of kiting means that almost every session involves some sort of problem solving. The only 100 percent reliable method is to embrace that aspect and develop the skills to solve the problems when they occur.

For me, on a 40+ knot day the first decision is to choose a site that allows plenty of room for dealing with problems and mishaps. Rule 1 of all extreme sports is to have an escape route and to protect that escape route at all costs. For strong days I choose big wide beaches with plenty of run out room and plenty of room to release if the shit hits the fan. It never has, but it's better to have a plan than no plan at all.

Of course releasing the QR on IDS (or any system) is an initial start to self landing. Is it the only method to self land... no. "Self landing" unassisted landing of the kite where the user can collect the kite. The video I linked was to show how the Cabrinha SB IDS kite reacted when the QB was released. This reaction was the same in all wind strengths from my experience. Yes the pull was stronger in higher winds, however only a fraction as strong as a kite which was flagged off 1 of the front lines on a 4 line system. When the kite was down on the LE it is at the same angle to the wind when you put your kite down on the beach when finished a session. No one puts their kite at an angle to the wind when finishing a session as one side of the kite would would be exposed more to the wind and you would potentially see kite sliding on the beach which should be stationary with middle strut into wind.
Of course no system is 100% and one should be ready for the unexpected, however i nor students never had an issues with the IDS system when used correctly with any of the Cabrinha SB IDS models from 09-13. The IDS system was incredible and confidence building as the pull was extremely low which made for an incredible self landing system regardless of wind strength.

I personally self land and launch 90% of the time as mentioned above if the conditions are on the upper end of the scale always make sure you have plenty of beach with no hazards to land on because things can always go wrong, I always self land using my top front line but on all the new bars I have I’ve replaced the safety flag out using 2 rings as when I hit the release the line immediately pulls through with no resistance and nearly all the time the kite lands face down on the leading edge even in higher winds, most of the new release mechanism’s go through the centre swivel/bar and on the bars I’ve had, there’s a slight drag and the line stalls a little before pulling through sometimes causing the kite to roll loop over downwind on the beach till it settles leading edge down, but in higher winds this can sometime be a bit scary, my flagout with the rings goes around the outside of the swivel and bar similar to the old Slingshot Mickey Mouse ears not ideal for some kiters but works for me. But pure C kites are a different matter this works on hybrid C shape, hybrids and delta or bows.

Going to bring this one back because I've been dealing with this since I bought a new kite last year and it kinda burns me up cause they solved this issue a long time ago and then all but one of the kite bar makers got rid of it - they were called Oh Shit Handles. I flew the old waroos until I wore out my 2009 9m and then was stuck looking for a new kite - settled on a sling shot cause they were the only ones left that had OSH on their bars - except ended up really not liking their kites and went with an element from Switch - great kite - but no OSH - and now what a pain in the ass to land the thing.

Granted, I know how to do the dive and grab the center line thing but if I don't manage to finesse it good enough I deal with a relaunch while my hands are in the lines - if anyone has seen someone who's been degloved raise your hand - I have and its gross and completely handicapping what happens to a hand where that went down.

With OSH on the outer lines you just lower the kite - unhook your leash, grab the OSH and then unhook the chicken loop - kite will flag out and can easily be maneuvered to get the LE in a safe postion - easy peasy - I could land that thing in 25 plus or even higher with no problems - did it hundreds of times with no problems at all - never even thought about it.

Now with this new kite if I miss the finesse move I'm stuck going to pop the safety, or if I know the wind is too strong for the finesse move I just go ahead and pop the safety - OK cool - but now I got this depowered kite bouncing around on a center line in the wrong position for the leading edge to just plop down facing up wind - So I have to walk up the safety line if I can't somehow get it to do what it doesn't want to do and flop down in a safe position. F'n PITA compared to when I had the OSH.

Why the "F" these G damn manufacturers got rid of the OSH I just can't figure out. HEY A-HOLE manufacturers - bring back the F'n OSH before someone loses a finger or gets killed trying to finesse a landing by grabbing at lines on a powered up kite.

Use a Slingshot bar which has "Oh Shit Handles" with your Switch kite.

Fifth line flagging on foil kite, no problem.

@kbkiter; Just make your own OSH. Make sure you test it in low winds first....

After a few "incidents" I've given up on landing my kites in strong winds, I just punch out and all is well. Done it many scores of times in the past five years on single-line front-line flagging Best bars. Just takes a few minutes to sort out bar and lines once kite is secured.