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12m or 14m Slingshot Rally for 200 lbs riders ??

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Re: 12m or 14m Slingshot Rally for 200 lbs riders ??

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:27 pm

SonnyRider wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:31 am
Kamikuza wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:25 am
Being a 200lb rider, he'll have plenty of practice riding in "light wind".

12m and a big board. Less wind than that needs will just be an exercise in frustration anyway, unless you go for the specialised equipment...
Agreed, the 'light winds' (for us) is 'normal' winds for lighter people.
Spent many a time frustrated at not being able to get out, but watch my GF @ 70kgs happily kiting for hours. :evil:

Unless you are 200lbs, you'll never understand
My mate tried to take his wife out tandem with his 12m in wind he was happy riding and jumping in, only to be unable to get up on a plane and have the Enduro buckle and deform. He came back in and said to me, "So, is this what it's like for you?" :lol:

KBHF . . . the great equalizer ;)

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Re: 12m or 14m Slingshot Rally for 200 lbs riders ??

Postby Matteo V » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:08 pm

SonnyRider wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:31 am
Agreed, the 'light winds' (for us) is 'normal' winds for lighter people.
Spent many a time frustrated at not being able to get out, but watch my GF @ 70kgs happily kiting for hours. :evil:

Unless you are 200lbs, you'll never understand
Things scale. Its a pretty simple concept. Yes, if you weigh a more than 10% more than another kiter, you will need to up a meter or two of kite are. You can even up your board surface area (you can debate width vs length). But just weighing more does not change the main physics at hand in kiting if you scale up your board and kite. Don't use this as an excuse to not be out on the water. You will only develop light wind skills if you get out on the water and flop around the board a bit. There will always be others out there with a bigger kite that weigh less, but you can learn to match them with skill instead of a bigger kite. Eventually, you gain skills by experience and "muscle" memory. And do not think that this is easy. It will take time, I guarantee it will be worth it. Being a 225lb kiter on a 13.5m kite when others won't go out on a 17m is a confirmation of your light wind skill.

But there are some things that do get left out of the scaling equation. Lines can give a different feel when considering a lighter weight kiter vs a heavier one. Line stretch is much higher with heavier riders and 600lb lines tend to stretch significantly more than 800lb lines for heavier riders. I have noticed this as a major issue since I switched to 800lb front lines. Less stretch means the kite powers up less off of a sudden gust.

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Re: 12m or 14m Slingshot Rally for 200 lbs riders ??

Postby Kamikuza » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:53 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:08 pm
SonnyRider wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:31 am
Agreed, the 'light winds' (for us) is 'normal' winds for lighter people.
Spent many a time frustrated at not being able to get out, but watch my GF @ 70kgs happily kiting for hours. :evil:

Unless you are 200lbs, you'll never understand
Things scale. Its a pretty simple concept. Yes, if you weigh a more than 10% more than another kiter, you will need to up a meter or two of kite are. You can even up your board surface area (you can debate width vs length). But just weighing more does not change the main physics at hand in kiting if you scale up your board and kite. Don't use this as an excuse to not be out on the water. You will only develop light wind skills if you get out on the water and flop around the board a bit. There will always be others out there with a bigger kite that weigh less, but you can learn to match them with skill instead of a bigger kite. Eventually, you gain skills by experience and "muscle" memory. And do not think that this is easy. It will take time, I guarantee it will be worth it. Being a 225lb kiter on a 13.5m kite when others won't go out on a 17m is a confirmation of your light wind skill.

But there are some things that do get left out of the scaling equation. Lines can give a different feel when considering a lighter weight kiter vs a heavier one. Line stretch is much higher with heavier riders and 600lb lines tend to stretch significantly more than 800lb lines for heavier riders. I have noticed this as a major issue since I switched to 800lb front lines. Less stretch means the kite powers up less off of a sudden gust.
It doesn't scale in a linear fashion. 10%, or 20% or whatever more weight isn't going to be overcome by the equivalent amount of area in a kite, even if you used the same gear. Technique and gear all come into the equation, but in the end, the little fellow on the smaller kite is going to rock upwind and have an easier time of it than the heavier rider. This is especially true in light wind, and the advantage the little guy has disappears as the wind picks up...

You mean about the lines, they stretch under load? Is that really a thing with pre-stretched lines or are the 800lb lines just stiffer?

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Re: 12m or 14m Slingshot Rally for 200 lbs riders ??

Postby grigorib » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:07 pm

AdroVempo wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:23 am
Hello All,
Need some help with Kite Size for first kite.
Weight: 200 lbs.
Average wind speeds i will be riding : mostly between 14-21mph.
Skill level: Pure beginner with quite a few lessons on water and snow.

I am looking to get a Slingshot Rally for what will be my first kite ever. I would like to buy the one that I will be able to use most, not ready to spend on a quiver yet.

So for my weight, and given the not-always-high winds of MN, I had been thinking that a 14m kite is what I would need (as my go-to kite). Coz i felt that during lessons, I struggled with generating enough power with 10m and 12m. Though it could also be my lack of skill.

Even the sales guys I chat online with (popular web kite shops online or on YouTube), insist that I need a 14m. But my instructor feels 12m should do.

Please advise which size...based on weight and also the fact that I will most probably be a weekend warrior, meaning most of the times, I will have to settle for not-enough wind.

Only 2 concerns with going ahead with the Slingshot Rally 14m is:
1. Whether I will be over-powered most of the time.
2. Whether 14m is too clumsy a kite to handle, in general. (Lot of people say: make 12m a regular go-to and rather than a 14m, go for light-wind specific even larger kite...like an Ozone Zephyr 17m).

Thanks.
I suggest getting 11m Rally for 200lbs and 14-21 knots.
I (at 200lbs) have been riding a 10m Rally until two years ago and then I wanted more power to jump higher so 11m for me was a step up.
My 11m Rally is my main kite and I ride it in pre-whitecaps up to 20+ knots. I consider whitecaps to appear in 16 knots.

12m is slow and clumsy to handle. Weird size. Ok for beginner but your progression will come ahead of this size fast.
14m is the kite you'd need for 10-16 knots. But make no mistake - 14m Rally is not a LW kite unless you weigh 130lbs. You should be looking at the 15m Turbine as LW kite instead.

If you'd feel underpowered, the line extensions or door board are right things to pick. These two are the lest expensive investments to help a beginner to get riding with least frustration. And these will be very useful for LW too

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Re: 12m or 14m Slingshot Rally for 200 lbs riders ??

Postby Matteo V » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:54 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:53 pm

It doesn't scale in a linear fashion. 10%, or 20% or whatever more weight isn't going to be overcome by the equivalent amount of area in a kite, even if you used the same gear.....
No, but it does scale. And I never said it was linear.

Using windsurfing as an example: nearly 100% of the windsurfing sail area was presented to the wind and produced lift (sideways pull in windsurfing). So the difference in sail area of a 7.5m vs a 6.5m windsurfing sail is 1m. That is a fairly linear relationship given similar aspect ratios on the same model of sail (cord length, camber line, and thicknesses play a huge role if not controlled for in different sizes)

Kiteboarding kites are different in that the projected area (not always published) is much less than the flat area (how kites are sized). Flat area is the size you are told the kite is, or rather what the kite is marked. C vs bow, bow vs delta, and a host of other variables come into play too. But projected area is the most important single factor. If I were told to give the 2 most important factors, it would be projected area AND aspect ratio. Three??? (now we are getting some real info) - Projected area, aspect ratio, and foil camber line.

But for basic comparison, you need to know at least projected area of the kite while it is in flight. Look up the Switch "Element 6" under the "Specs" Section. Inside of the "Details" chart, you will find almost all of the important specifications for a size comparison under a single model. In this chart:

10m flat area kite has the projected area of an approximately 6.5m (actually 6.57) windsurfing sail
12m flat area kite has the projected area of an approximately 7.5m (actually 7.88) windsurfing sail

And here is the main explanation of why windsurfing quivers went in 1m increments at this size range, and kites go in 2m increments.

So to scale off the number on the side of the kite is not a relationship that you could call linear. You have to look deeper in the specs to get close to something that is linear.

And no, you could never actually reach a directly linear relationship, no matter how deep in the specs you go. Pretty soon, you get down to how the designer scaled the different sizes. And there many examples of kites in the past that had size "scaling issues" or rather, good kites in the bigger sizes, but terrible kites in the smaller sizes, and vise versa.

So now that I stole a little bit of your life in that TL;DR,.......if you weight more, go another size up with the kite or the board, or both. No need to get into charts when you can just go bigger and try to make that work.

Kamikuza wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:53 pm

You mean about the lines, they stretch under load? Is that really a thing with pre-stretched lines or are the 800lb lines just stiffer?
You should have experienced this when tuning your line sets. Anchor the lines off to something solid like a tree. Pull on those lines and see how much stretch you can feel. Now think about how much bar travel that equates to. Want to see some serious stretch??? Hook your harness up to a line and put all of your body weight on it. You will see some large movements that are very much plausible with that experiment as your kite is actually lifting you up off the water and loading more than you can ever pull on the lines horizontally on land. Want to go deeper? Try to make some crude measurements and test your 800lb front lines (Slingshot) vs your lower test 600lb back lines while hooked to the harness. That is pretty eye opening. And all of this movement due to stretch is equal to bar movement (pulling in the bar when stretching front lines) that powers up your kite. If you had very stretchy (elastic) lines, the kite would be uncontrollable in gusts and difficult to use all around. Want even more stretch? - make your lines longer so that a given percentage stretch equals more length of stretch (and more movement on the bar).

So the more (elastic) stretch in your lines, the less control you have over your kite powering up in a gust off of front line stretch alone.

Your reference to "pre-stretched" lines is talking about a different phenomenon - there are 2 types of stretch, elastic (springy, rubberband) and inelastic "creep" or yield (permanent deformation, like stretching a plastic grocery sack).

The elastic stretch (rubber band) of Dyneema/Spectra kite lines is only controllable by up-sizing the line size (going from 600lb to 800lb). This keeps the load to a lower percentage of the maximum load a line can handle when you up-size. This keeps your kite lines from being too springy like a rubber band.

Inelastic stretch is controlled for by "pre-stretching" Dyneema/Spectra kite lines for a given time at a higher load than they will receive during use. I build my own kite line sets and have lots of experience getting the inelastic stretch out of the lines. By pre-stretching with effective techniques, you can control for yield that would detrimentally effect tune or actual line length.

Want to think about an interesting "paradox"?? A light weight rider on 600lb lines will experience less powering up of the kite due to front line stretch than a heavier weight rider on that same kite. This is because the lighter weight rider has less inertia to resist the powering up of the kite due to line stretch and thus is "yanked" before the lines stretch even more to sheet in the kite...even more. But this kiter did get yanked at an earlier time than a heavier rider, so they may report that the kite is too big anyway. But the heavier rider experiences more line stretch, and thus more stretch induced "sheeting in without moving the bar". But having the inertia to resist this, the heavier kiter may not yet say that the wind is too much. The paradox is that the heavier kiter is stretching their lines more than the lighter kiter, but is ok with it.

Essentially, a 45kg kid can use 300lb lines and experience the same line stretch that a 90kg rider would on 600lb lines who would experience the same line stretch that a 110kg rider would experience on 800lb lines.

Again, at 100kg, I find that 800lb front lines are essential to my comfortable riding as they help to minimize this elastic stretch that powers up the kite in gusty conditions.

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Re: 12m or 14m Slingshot Rally for 200 lbs riders ??

Postby Kamikuza » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:46 am

Holy heck :D

That's not what I meant. Assume everyone has the exact same gear: if I'm 20% heavier, a 20% bigger kite will only be the solution for a very narrow range of wind speed. At 12 knots, I might need 80% more kite while at 25 knots, I may be able to use the same size -- for the same enjoyment, comfort etc.

I see your point. But :D how much difference does it really make, and how much is mental? There must be a calculation...

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Re: 12m or 14m Slingshot Rally for 200 lbs riders ??

Postby dazarter » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:52 am

I think its all been said here already but just add my experience to all of it :D

I also started out with kite that were too small (my weight 175 pounds - 81 kg) - they are faster, harder to control at first and have more explosive power because of the speed and turning ability. I started with an 11 qm kite.....it was a bad mistake! i slowly got better - learning alone, and continually changed my kite for bigger ones - always using a 3 kite range. at first just the 11, then came an 8 qm with 11, sold them - then came a 9 with a 13, not enough power with the 13 and the 9 was not stable enough and too quick! then a got an 8 and 10 to join the 13qm but quickly got rid of the 13 for a 15 qm which was perfect for me it was slow, started really well out of the water and had good power without being extreme, with this kite i made the most progress i have ever made - it did everything just right..... I also used a two board solution a small board for more wind and a bigger board for less wind .....worked really well when i was a beginner.

I think the 14 rally would have the same amount of power as my 15 qm, and believe it would be perfect for you to start with- i would also reccomend you get a 10 qm or you will be too limited with just a 14.....

now a use a 8-10-13 qm range Gasstra pure, and think i have found my perfect range, i dont kite in super light winds but use my 7 metre extentions on the 13 when the wind is lighter :D , i also have ditched the two board twin tip solution and love my 142x42 board for everything i do - ok to hold in 4o knots and great in 12 knots 8 knots - i did also buy a wide surf board but its not really me.... :roll:

14qm is a really nice size unless your foiling.....

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Re: 12m or 14m Slingshot Rally for 200 lbs riders ??

Postby Matteo V » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:19 pm

dazarter wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:52 am
I think its all been said here already but just add my experience to all of it :D

I also started out with kite that were too small (my weight 175 pounds - 81 kg) - they are faster, harder to control at first and have more explosive power because of the speed and turning ability. I started with an 11 qm kite.....it was a bad mistake! i slowly got better - learning alone, and continually changed my kite for bigger ones - always using a 3 kite range. at first just the 11, then came an 8 qm with 11, sold them - then came a 9 with a 13, not enough power with the 13 and the 9 was not stable enough and too quick! then a got an 8 and 10 to join the 13qm but quickly got rid of the 13 for a 15 qm which was perfect for me it was slow, started really well out of the water and had good power without being extreme, with this kite i made the most progress i have ever made - it did everything just right..... I also used a two board solution a small board for more wind and a bigger board for less wind .....worked really well when i was a beginner.
Very well said, and a very common experience. Also, your advice(experience) can save the OP some money if they just get a big enough kite for your windspeed/weight/board.

Try to ween yourself off of the idea - "I like to be fully powered, or overpowered all the time". It takes time, but there is lots of fun to be had with a kite that you move instead of park. The added benefit is the efficiency you will get. I forced myself into this by never getting a water kite above 13.5m. I love flying the 17m's I occasionally get a chance to use, but having the skill and efficiency to make even more out of those kites is nice also.

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Re: 12m or 14m Slingshot Rally for 200 lbs riders ??

Postby Matteo V » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:28 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:46 am
Holy heck :D

That's not what I meant. Assume everyone has the exact same gear: if I'm 20% heavier, a 20% bigger kite will only be the solution for a very narrow range of wind speed. At 12 knots, I might need 80% more kite while at 25 knots, I may be able to use the same size -- for the same enjoyment, comfort etc.

I see your point. But :D how much difference does it really make, and how much is mental? There must be a calculation...
You make an excellent point that I may take the time to investigate the math on this at some point. Save that investigation, think about sail boats and the relation of sail size to displacement.

1. By your theory, a small dinghy would have a 6m sail, and a 30ft cruiser would have an exponentially larger sail vs it's displacement that would dwarf the boat it was on in comparison. Why is this not the case? Think model sailboat vs full sized sailboat.

2. How can I, at 200kg (Edit that to say 100kg) with a medium sized (for my weight) surfboard, use a 13.5m kite when other lighter weight kiters cannot make a 17m work?

Given your theory and my example #2, you would think that weighing 25kg more than another rider would handicap me to the point where no degree of skill could make up for me still being on a smaller kite.

My theory, backed up by personal experience and observation of other kiters, is that being a "heavy" kiter is not the handicap most of us believe it to be. I would posit that it is, in fact, almost all psychological. And thus a little more kite, in any wind speed, equalizes or at least makes up to some degree for the extra weight we carry.
Last edited by Matteo V on Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 12m or 14m Slingshot Rally for 200 lbs riders ??

Postby badgb21 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:59 pm

You must have super powers!
I'm calling bullshit on this one - 200Kg FFS!
I'd love to contribute more but there is so much confusion and misunderstanding on these latest posts, the OP must be dazed by now.
Kamikuza - you have got patience!

Good luck with your little kites, surf board and super powers, but some of us do like power and all the fun that brings ;)




Matteo V wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:28 pm

2. How can I, at 200kg with a medium sized (for my weight) surfboard, use a 13.5m kite when other lighter weight kiters cannot make a 17m work?



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