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Foiling - only for frequent riders or occasionals as well?

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Kamikuza
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Re: Foiling - only for frequent riders or occasionals as well

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:39 am

I hate big tube kites (all that bar pressure!) and if I'm going to use something that goddamn slow, I may as well get onto the foil kites.

So for me, it's a 10m LEI and a foil board for all but the very, very lightest winds, then maybe swap to a TT (and maybe go up to a 12m) when I get "over-powered" on the foil. Or a 15m-plus foil kite and TT if I really feel the need.

Relative to learning a TT, it's more a beatdown :D just think of it as negative reinforcement. It's a bit of a kick in the ego too, because as competent as you may be on any other board, the foil is something else again and you'll feel like a retard who can't even get onto the board, let alone ride it.

My advice for learning -- clean 15knots, an LEI you're comfortable handling and has you just powered enough to body drag easily, then get a boat ride way the hell upwind from your beach and get dropped out there. Then try to figure it out . . . just don't forget the helmet.

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Re: Foiling - only for frequent riders or occasionals as well

Postby knotwindy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:29 am

Something else to consider, as mentioned above, the stance is really different on a foil so you sort of have to stay with just the foil until you get the new muscle memory worked out. Only then can you go back and forth to your tt. So you have to be willing to commit to pretty much just the foil until you get it or it will take much longer & be fairly frustrating. IMO.

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Re: Foiling - only for frequent riders or occasionals as well

Postby BWD » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:32 am

apollo4000 wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:03 pm
Very very useful insight. Last year I managed just under 20 sessions. Sounds like it’s going to be tricky unless I take a holiday. Many thanks. What model did you go for and would you make the same choice again?
I have friends with slingshot hoverglide and had my first rides on one of these. So I knew that was an option. I ended up buying a used zeeko with regular and carver (larger) wings but only 90cm mast. I really like how much more sensitive and lighter it is, but if I did it over again I would have bought a 70cm mast right away. A month or so later they raised the price of the mast from 229 to 290 or something, and I was figuring out the long mast, so I didn’t bite. But, I’m still figuring it out after 20 more sessions and the sandbars aren’t getting any deeper either. Every now and then I make a decent jibe, every now and then I hit a sandbar. It all works out in the end. I like the carver wing a lot, and I like that my gear is a kilo or so lighter than slingshot.

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Re: Foiling - only for frequent riders or occasionals as well

Postby downunder » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:06 am

I was foiling a bit (20m?) after 4th or 5th water start on 70cm mast with 7m kite in 15-18kn. The sesh took about 45 mins and tried maybe 7 times (all with a splash :)

However, I did have an "instructor" helping me. With no help, it would be a pain since even the foil is very very heavy for me being 59kg. Just couldn't hold the board in position most of the time to hop on it.

It is that heavy. With my left hand I could not use it (bad shoulder), hence couldn't try to go opposite way. It is BIG problem going back to shore for me since HF is faaasst, and makes a huge distance in no time. I see this will be a problem for me coz of my shoulder.

Hence, my DIY carbon HF all the way.

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Re: Foiling - only for frequent riders or occasionals as well

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:18 am

BWD wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:32 am
apollo4000 wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:03 pm
Very very useful insight. Last year I managed just under 20 sessions. Sounds like it’s going to be tricky unless I take a holiday. Many thanks. What model did you go for and would you make the same choice again?
I have friends with slingshot hoverglide and had my first rides on one of these. So I knew that was an option. I ended up buying a used zeeko with regular and carver (larger) wings but only 90cm mast. I really like how much more sensitive and lighter it is, but if I did it over again I would have bought a 70cm mast right away. A month or so later they raised the price of the mast from 229 to 290 or something, and I was figuring out the long mast, so I didn’t bite. But, I’m still figuring it out after 20 more sessions and the sandbars aren’t getting any deeper either. Every now and then I make a decent jibe, every now and then I hit a sandbar. It all works out in the end. I like the carver wing a lot, and I like that my gear is a kilo or so lighter than slingshot.
Most of the weight is in massive HG front wing, and at the end of a mast it's more noticeable than if the weight was evenly spread out...

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Re: Foiling - only for frequent riders or occasionals as well

Postby plummet » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:25 am

It's an interesting question and one that needs more information from you to answer correctly.

I'll answer based on assumptions and the refine when you provide actuals.

1) Wanted to know whether the effort and expense would pay off for the occasional rider? Why are you occasional? lack of wind?, lack of time due to work, family and or location/travel time. What is occasional? once a week? once a month? once a year?

If your occasional nature is due to lack of wind then yes. Foiling will take you from occasional to often. But if lack of wind is not the limiting factor then foiling will be a challenge to learn and your progression will be slow and possibly stagnate.


2) Is it really for those who go regularly?
Ultimately it benefits the regular kiter more because the regular kiter can invest time to progress. The occasional kiter wont be able to progress past a basic level. I have gone from regular (several times a week) to occasional (several times per month) kiter part way through learning the foil due to job change. When i was a regular kiter my progression was steady and constantly improving. When i shifted to occasional my progression stalled. Now i spend most of the session just getting back to where i was last session rather than progressing at a regular rate. If the gap between sessions is too great i start to regress and need a couple of sessions to get back to where i was before.

F

3) Relative to starting with a TT, is it significantly harder?
Yes it is significantly harder to learn compared to a TT. I find this frustrating as an occasional kiter. I want to progress to the next level. but because in might take 10-20-30 hours to do so it just takes sooooo long doing the odd session every now and then. Most of the time i just want to ride rather than be constantly crashing trying to learn a new skill.....

Side note i have challenging conditions to foil in. Big swell, chop with no flat water. Progression is harder due to my conditions as well which probably compounds my occasional learning regression.

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Re: Foiling - only for frequent riders or occasionals as well

Postby juandesooka » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:54 am

Foiling has been a nice surprise...not just for light wind. In fact I prefer it in 20+ with a small zippy kite. I bring 3 boards to the water edge then use whichever is best for conditions depending on variable winds. Many days I use all 3, twin tip, surfboard, foil.

Buddy has ss 3 mast system. Forget 20 to 30 sessions. He was foiling in the first 5 minutes. 15" and 24" easy. Transition to 30" a little more tricky. Agree about progression though....way better if you can devote some time to tackle it. Once you've got it, then it's easy (though Itoo eexperience the steps backwards when haven't done it in a while. ...takes half a session to get that feeling back).

if your limited kiting is due to lack of wind you can also foil behind a boat or jetski. That's how i learned and tge skills transfer directly (though some kites disagree).

Any lower aspect non racing foil will be good. Lots of variety out there now. I believe in buying a cheapie used then sell it when you're ready to upgrade.

Another option is to go with large surf sup foil. Very easy to learn and stable. But they are slow. ...limited top end, as designed to ride waves. Also expensive still, not many used ones.

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Re: Foiling - only for frequent riders or occasionals as well

Postby Foil » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:23 am

I used the Slingshot hoverglide and Alien air set up with the school mast set, spot on for learning and easy to move on to another newbie.
the one thing I had to do was stop using my twintip for 6 months and only use the foil as it messed up my muscle memory process, I found many others who had to do the same.
Moving on to the Moses was a shock, I was up and going in straight lines easily on the hoverglide, however it took me 3 long and frustrating days to get to the same point on my new Moses gear, and I found another guy who did exactly the same and almost binned his moses to stick with his hoverglide, but after meeting me and sharing our experiences he finally cracked the more difficult moses.

Sailing the Hoverglide was like trying to walk along a very thin girder with someone at each end shaking it.
Sailing the Moses was like trying to walk along a long suspended rope with someone at each end shaking the rope.
But well worth the effort and time,

Moving over to the Moses carbon gear is not a must do, just a nice to do if your a gear junkie like me.
To emphasize how different the board handling between the 2 sports differs, after a few months learning how to foil I jumped on my Twin Tip on a windy wavy day and kept falling off, I could not nail any jump or steer my way through the waves, utterly devastated and so fed up with myself I came in and packed up, went home and parked my twinnie in the garage for the next 4 months.
No problem now as I re-trained myself over a few hours in less extreme conditions, but i still have to think hard in the first few yards when I jump on my twinnie to stop me simply sliding to a fall.
Both sports link together, but Foiling is so much harder and more scary, and foiling really forces you to improve your kite skills which is not something you realise until you get into it.

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Re: Foiling - only for frequent riders or occasionals as well

Postby apollo4000 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:29 pm

Eduardo wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:55 pm
There's a huge point missing in the discussion - foiling (and almost anything in kiting) is a ton of fun while you're learning. The comments are 20-30 sessions until you can do it well - sure - but the 20-30 sessions while you suck are also FUN! Just like you found it a huge thrill the first time you stayed upwind or jumped 1/2 a meter in the air, you will get a huge thrill the first time you foil for 30 seconds. It is up there with first kite loop - first nailed front roll, ... At 20 sessions a year, you might never be the best guy on the beach. But 5 years from now, you will either be a solid TT'er only, or a solid TTer and solid foiler. You will have more fun if you do both. Go for it...
Very good points. Well made. Thx

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Re: Foiling - only for frequent riders or occasionals as well

Postby Craz Z » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:21 pm

apollo4000 wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:46 am
I’m getting curious about foiling and seek the advice of those who have tried and liked it, and those who haven’t

1) Wanted to know whether the effort and expense would pay off for the occasional rider?
2) Is it really for those who go regularly?
3) Relative to starting with a TT, is it significantly harder?
4) any recommendations on on mast size and board type; starter packages

Cheers all
1) yes it is totally worth the expense. You first need to tell yourself if you buy a foil you just added at least 1 kite to your quiver so that almost justifies the investment out of the box. The additional benefit is smaller kites again = less money. The next best thing is if you are an occasional rider whatever that means. Do you go and get skunked or not quite enough wind or just x amount of days windy enough to ride a TT? If its any of these you will go from occasionally being able to ride to never worrying about the wind speed again and riding ALL THE TIME in almost any condition.

2) the learning curve will force you to be regular until you get the concept and muscle memory after that no you can go occasionally.

3) everyone starts with the TT so how hard was that to learn? The key here is you need to be very confident in the water and be an expert body dragger after that you need to know the self rescue method and practice it often YOU will BE Swimming more then you'd like on lighter days (PFD). The issue with TT are that once you get to certain level how often does your hair even get wet? if you answered rarely then you need to practice the above. Next is and only for a tiny portion, is if you have not rode a directional surfboard strapless do this first. It give you the body dragging technique and also sort of prepares you for water starting a foil, the other thing a strapless surfboard teaches you is switching your feet so you kinda know a little bit of how to turn the foil when you get to that level. Otherwise you will need to waterstart the foil perfectly going BOTH directions. you'll get good right away with one direction and terrible on the tack back again body draggin master.

If you want to progress the fastest. LEAVE ALL OTHER BOARDS AT HOME. Put the time in and just do it. I see way to many that try different disciplines and always run back to their comfort zone. kick the training wheels to the curb and focus on what you want out of it. by far the best advice you will get other then lean forward.

4) Get a shovel large wing to start they rise quickly and go waaay slower helping you get the feel of height control. Personally i skipped the short mast and glad i did yes the crashes are epic and GET FOOT HOOKS best thing ever for beginning. Any board that has some nose rocker is ideal. The original foil fish is flat and will hurl you into the drink. Boards with rocker will skip you on the water and save you from some of the crashes.

A few extra tips. If you begin porposing or dolphin or bucking bronco you need to eject from the board or neutral the kite and start over.

If you get a track board set it in the rear to start and slowly as you get the hang of it move it forward to your liking. If you're on a fixed mast always remember LEAN forward stay on the board and SLOWLY lean back to bring it up. fast movements in any direction begin the dolphin horrendous crashes. Coming from a TT you will always want to get on the back of it DONT

Another tip why you want the larger wings to start is you need some speed not a lot but some speed to stabilize it. believe it or not but the smaller the wing the faster you need to go to stabilize it. just start with easy takeoffs and short glides and you'll be fine. rinse and repeat then start going faster.

Last is listen to your foil the ones without winglets will not give you much warning when you hit full mast then instant face plant. it will go from silent to a gurgling noise. slowly lean forward quickly if u can.

never try to save a ride and get away from it quickly if things aren't going calmly and smoothly. Weird shit happens and you won't make any sense of what happened but the foil can and will get caught in your lines be ready for it. watch your limbs when swimming they are sharp and hurt.

Above all have fun its literally the best thing to happen to kiteboarding in my opinion. I really wish I would have started sooner but like you the expense was hard to swallow as I remember back in the day trying an air chair and saying F that noise. Now is the time foils are cheap and getting cheaper every year. Remember its like getting a free kite with your purchase. Once someone said that I WAS SOLD. WIthin a season you'll be hooked and wanting a faster one.


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