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Different Bar Widths - Explained

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Toby
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Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby Toby » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:51 pm

Different Bar Widths - Explained

rgd 1.png

Today I’m going to talk about an interesting topic that continues to cause controversy - even amongst myself and colleagues at DUOTONE - the width of a kite bar.
As you may have noticed, there is no standardised bar width within the kite industry. So let’s explore why and try to find the right setup for you.

Does a narrow bar make your kite slower?

The biggest misconception is that a narrow bar automatically makes a kite turn slower.
If you look at the picture below, you’ll see the small (42cm) and the standard (49cm) DUOTONE Click Bar.

rgd 2.png
rgd 2.png (102.36 KiB) Viewed 1322 times

In order to conclude which is better for you, we first must understand the maths behind the different bar widths. As an example I have illustrated a typical steering scenario. Both bars are turned 45°. The difference in the back line length is 2.5cm. That means, the wider bar shortens the back lines 2.5cm compared to the shorter Bar, on a similar turning angle.

rgd 3.png
rgd 3.png (99.98 KiB) Viewed 1322 times

To achieve a similar reduction of the steering line length on the shorter 42cm bar, you have to pull the bar 10° more.

rgd 4.png
rgd 4.png (102.73 KiB) Viewed 1322 times

Why does the bar width have to vary?

Mainly there are two variables to look at:
- The kite size.
- The stall point.

If you scale a 10m² kite up to 15m² without changing any of its design parameters, you would automatically increase the steering length. This is easy to understand as the 15m² kite has a much wider tip area than the 10m² kite and therefore has to be bent more to reach the same level of deforming.

Does this mean the bigger the kite, the longer the bar has to be?

Not necessarily. For example, the EVO comes in 11 sizes and all of them have different aspect ratios and tip geometries that offset the steering input length. However, this change in parameters does have a certain limitation called the stall point.

rgd 5.png

Every kite reaches a stall point when you pull on the steering lines too much. This stall point sets the lower limit of the steering line length and forces the designer to either, increase the tip area or choose a smaller bar width. The overall steering line length between the 42cm and 49cm bar is 3.5cm. This sounds marginal but it makes a huge difference on a 4m² kite.

Does the width change the bar feedback?

The clear answer is yes. A wider bar on a small kite - like an 8m² - will give you an imprecise feeling under strong and turbulent conditions. This is due to the fact that there is always a certain movement between the rider and the kite, especially in rough sea conditions. This movement results into a shaking bar which will give you the feeling of being disconnected from the kite. It’s a bit like having power steering that’s too soft in your car. It’s not precise enough around the middle axis.

Conclusion.

Smaller kites do require smaller bars. At DUOTONE we have agreed on having two different bar widths that perfectly capture all sizes from 4m² to 17m². This works because we are changing and adapting the design parameters on every single kite and size.

I highly recommend the following rules for all kite models:
Use the small bar on kites 4m² to 10m². Use the wider bar on kites 11m² to 17m². Since the wider bar also comes with 2m longer lines than the small bar, the low-wind abilities are noticeably improved. In my eyes, a 49cm bar should not be flown with an 8m² kite as the steering input and precision is not on the same handling level as it would be on the 42cm version.

https://www.ralfgroeseldesign.com/blog/ ... -explained

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby apollo4000 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:29 pm

Innovation is having one bar which can be adjusted for large and small kites. This issue has already been solved. Two bars is a backward step. Take back your revenue generating marketing blurb. I dare you to make a single bar with adjustable floats....hang on.. :lol:

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby Barryg101 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:37 pm

Why doesn't this bar just have adjustable size like most of the other bars on the market today?

Seems strange that you need to own two bars when most the other brands have an adjustable bar width , which is much better in my opinion.

Maybe there's a reason that there is no adjustable on this bar if so please inform me as I'm very interested as to why?

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby iriejohn » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:47 pm

I highly recommend the following rules for all kite models:

Use the small bar on kites 4m² to 10m². Use the wider bar on kites 11m² to 17m². Since the wider bar also comes with 2m longer lines than the small bar, the low-wind abilities are noticeably improved. In my eyes, a 49cm bar should not be flown with an 8m² kite as the steering input and precision is not on the same handling level as it would be on the 42cm version.
Loving the proscriptive tone (sic) of the post, that's a nice little earner for Duotone isn't it? :wink:

As it happens I prefer to use a 17"/43cm bar with 23m lines with my 6m kite and a 20"/51cm bar with 23m lines with my 8m, 10m, and 12m kites.
A wider bar on a small kite - like an 8m² - will give you an imprecise feeling under strong and turbulent conditions. This is due to the fact that there is always a certain movement between the rider and the kite, especially in rough sea conditions. This movement results into a shaking bar which will give you the feeling of being disconnected from the kite. It’s a bit like having power steering that’s too soft in your car. It’s not precise enough around the middle axis.
A "shaking bar"? I was going to say that I've now heard it all but I'm sure I haven't. Unfortunately. :(
Last edited by iriejohn on Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby iriejohn » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:53 pm

Barryg101 wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:37 pm
Why doesn't this bar just have adjustable size like most of the other bars on the market today?

Seems strange that you need to own two bars when most the other brands have an adjustable bar width , which is much better in my opinion.

Maybe there's a reason that there is no adjustable on this bar if so please inform me as I'm very interested as to why?
Even if it were possible to make a width adjustable Click bar where's the profit in selling one bar instead of two? :?:

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby Barryg101 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:06 pm

Even if it were possible to make a width adjustable Click bar where's the profit in selling one bar instead of two? :?:
For example I will buy a whole quiver of kites and specifically choose a brand that has a one bar does it all so that I don't need to buy two bars . So my dollar goes to another brand that makes plenty of profit , no marketing needed just a decent innovative design .

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby Faxie » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:17 pm

I don't see why the clickbar can't have adjustable floaters. Put a pulley in the floaters to guide the lines or something. It's not like the bar isn't already loaded with gears.

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby iriejohn » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:25 pm

Faxie wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:17 pm
I don't see why the clickbar can't have adjustable floaters. Put a pulley in the floaters to guide the lines or something. It's not like the bar isn't already loaded with gears.
I didn't say it couldn't be done, I said "where's the profit in selling one bar instead of two". In any case, the wider bar comes with longer lines so it's lose lose.
Since the wider bar also comes with 2m longer lines than the small bar,
Last edited by iriejohn on Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby Faxie » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:27 pm

iriejohn wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:25 pm
Faxie wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:17 pm
I don't see why the clickbar can't have adjustable floaters. Put a pulley in the floaters to guide the lines or something. It's not like the bar isn't already loaded with gears.
I didn't say it couldn't be done, I said "where's the profit in selling one bar instead of two".
I wasn't replying to you :P

Yeah, the more bars sold, the better... there will probably not be a lot of people that will choose another brand because of adjustable floats.

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby iriejohn » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:31 pm

Faxie wrote:I wasn't replying to you :P

Yeah, the more bars sold, the better... there will probably not be a lot of people that will choose another brand because of adjustable floats.
Sorry.


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