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Different Bar Widths - Explained

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windmaker
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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby windmaker » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:55 am

foilholio wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:47 am
TheJoe wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:45 pm
He is right though a bigger bar does not make a kite turn faster.
Is Ralf the idiot or are you? It is getting hard to tell at this point.

Let me state a few simple FACTs.

Turn speed relates to the AMOUNT of a rear line pulled, the more a rear line is pulled the faster a kite turns.

A larger bar pulls more of a rear line.

Therefore a larger bar makes a kite turn faster.

Now there is some conditions I could throw in there, but I am trying to expand it and also keep it simple so your brain can digest it. Or maybe like Ken or Ralph I just need to write pages and pages littered with rubbish and you will swallow it whole? Somewhere someone is laughing about this, hopefully it's not Ken or Ralph, because that would be quite sick. I tend to think of them as a bit stupid rather than evil.
Dan-at-Duotone wrote: Both Ralf and Ken have strong feelings about how to get the utmost performance from a kite
Then why do they argue against foil kites so much? Your statement is in contradiction of the facts. If they really care about performance they would have foil kites. They don't so they either don't care for performance or don't understand it (stupid).
:thumb: :thumb: Basic principle of leverage . Maybe the guys at DT should try flying a kite on a 20cm bar to see if the kite turns at all :)

And what is this story about bars being compatible back to 2005? So are 95% of the bars on the market.

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby Faxie » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:00 pm

If they cared about performance, they would start getting the basics right in stead of adding fixes like battens and pulleys. But they don't, cause then they can't rely fully on the CAD software, and sacrifice material and labour economics for a stronger and thinner LE and smoother canopy. Nope, just add battens and the bridle attachements at the weak points. Add a pulley to compensate for the not ideal geometry.

Can't sacrifice the profit margins by keeping the MSRP the same. And who cares? People willl buy it anyway, because marketing and distributer network.

It's even too much to ask to upgrade the lines and sleeves. Even one of the last brands to upgrade the freaking inflate valve...

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby jpbrazan » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:11 pm

I think the argument over bar length affecting turning speed is due to semantics...both sides are correct depending on what you mean by "faster". As illustrated in the original post, a longer bar will cause the kite to turn/respond with less change in bar angle. I think this is what some are referring to as faster. What others are referring to as faster is how quickly the kite will turn in the air for a given change in relative line length. Like in the example - a 45 deg angle with the 49 cm car and a 55 deg angle with the 42 cm bar both result in the same change in relative line length... in both scenarios the kite will turn through the air at the same speed but this turn speed is achieved "faster" (less bar pull required) with the longer bar.

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Dan-at-Duotone
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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby Dan-at-Duotone » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:20 pm

Hahaha. Foilholio's 'facts' are awesome. "Then why do they argue against foil kites so much? Your statement is in contradiction of the facts. If they really care about performance they would have foil kites."

A. We have a foil kite. It's called the Ace.

B. One of our two designers, Ralf Groesel, was involved in the founding of Flysurfer and worked for them as well as a paragliding company designing foils for years before joining Boards and More. Pretty sure he's well versed in the pros and cons of foil kites vs LEI.

Faxie-
I understand your skepticism. Pretty sure that you can write me off as a corporate lackey with that same skepticism, but I've seen the work Ken puts into designing kites. If you don't like his designs I won't try to tell you otherwise, not all kites work for all people, but I guarantee that he tests, sews, retests, tweaks, etc multiple prototypes for each size of each model he works on. When he used to live/design here in the Gorge (he's full-time in Hawaii now) we would have a pile of kites downstairs with zippers, crazily knotted bridles, weird sewing lines etc in the warehouse every year. I'm not as personally familiar with Ralf, but I know they each put a lot of sweat into making the best kites they can.

Windmaker-
You might be right about many bars being backwards compatible, but I can't think of any... most of my non-B&M (NKB/DTK) experience was when I was teaching on Cabrinha kites and working in a shop 2009 and earlier. I know Cab went through several different safety systems (Recon, Recon 2, pulleys on the original Xbow, etc), the bars of which are not compatible with their current kites (also, anyone remember their secondary safety back then, the parachute pin? It wouldn't release under load, and even if you were able to pull the pin, it was connected to the bar so you'd lose your thumb if you were able to get it to release).
Back in '05/'06 SS had their 'wave grenade' and oh-shit-handles, which I don't think they'd recommend for use on current kites.
Actually, I think LF was using the Powerlock bar back then which may have used an outside line safety, and regardless had some issues with the release and I'm pretty sure they'd tell you not to use that bar with their current kites.
We were also the only brand whose safety passed the French norm until around 2012? And even now I think there are several safeties on the market that may not pass. This is just one reason that we say you can use any year NKB/Duotone kite on any year 5th Element bar at least as far back as 2005 (I don't have detailed production records for earlier), a claim that I don't think any other manufacturer who has been in business as long as we have can make.

-Dan

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby foilholio » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:12 pm

I think you mean North had a foil kite, as in Duotone is absent of one, which looked exactly like an Elf. Was there a problem with your Super Great existing designers designing a foil kite themselves? :-)

As to Ralph's involvement with Flysurfer, I think others have explained the NONimportance of it. If you look at the surface facts, Flysurfer's early years didn't produce anything outstanding, that came latter long after "The legendary Ralph" had gone. Interesting that.

B&M has a long history of arguing against foil kites. It wasn't until racing came that real kite performance could be measured and then a minor foil brand taught you a lesson in Reality. That is to say the importance of other competitions is on rider performance and not the kites. The stable of long touted Pros does fine on most kites from any year.

Flysurfer had a quick release in 2008 that met the French requirements and their earlier releases had low release forces too. Flysurfer has some production records (line plans) publicly available for every kite they every made, as in to before 2005.

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby PullStrings » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:35 am

foilholio wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:12 pm
Flysurfer had a quick release in 2008 that met the French requirements
You lookin fly Foil holio ... yep QR was pretty good...hey...don't blame yourself....you like the pic ?

:superfly:

Image
Last edited by PullStrings on Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Chris_Kite
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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby Chris_Kite » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:44 am

f*** me, is this what this forum is all about!? Just a bunch of kite reps arguing constantly :(

Do all sports have this pettiness. You join a forum to learn and share a love of kiting and your greeted with a bunch of reps trying to show their worth with pathetic insults.

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby cglazier » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:14 am

Back on topic..

Ralf's original post shows well how bar width affects a kite's turning speed. Clearly you can use a shorter bar or use the shorter setting on an adjustable width bar to slow the kite response speed.
What isn't mentioned is that the kite 'speed' also depends on the distance between the front and back (steering) lines at the kite. Most kites have multiple attachment points for the steering lines (Duotone uses a choice of knots). Choosing an attachment point closer to the front line will slow the kite response. Small kites already have a smaller distance between the front line and steering line just due to scale. But for small kites you may want to slow them even more.

Personally I use the inner attachment points on my small kites to further slow them rather than reducing my bar width. That way I use one bar for everything.

:wink:
CG

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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby Faxie » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:31 am

cglazier wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:14 am
Back on topic..

Ralf's original post shows well how bar width affects a kite's turning speed. Clearly you can use a shorter bar or use the shorter setting on an adjustable width bar to slow the kite response speed.
What isn't mentioned is that the kite 'speed' also depends on the distance between the front and back (steering) lines at the kite. Most kites have multiple attachment points for the steering lines (Duotone uses a choice of knots). Choosing an attachment point closer to the front line will slow the kite response. Small kites already have a smaller distance between the front line and steering line just due to scale. But for small kites you may want to slow them even more.

Personally I use the inner attachment points on my small kites to further slow them rather than reducing my bar width. That way I use one bar for everything.

:wink:
CG
Not entirely... for the same barinput, aoa change will be higher on knots closer to the frontline. But the added barpressure will require more effort to turn the bar, making it steer slower in the end. But you can get the same effect by placing your hands more to the center of the bar...

windmaker
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Re: Different Bar Widths - Explained

Postby windmaker » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:26 am

Chris_Kite wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:44 am
f*** me, is this what this forum is all about!? Just a bunch of kite reps arguing constantly :(

Do all sports have this pettiness. You join a forum to learn and share a love of kiting and your greeted with a bunch of reps trying to show their worth with pathetic insults.
Yes, to learn and share.... the truth. Constructive criticism which makes us all better . Can't remember anyone insulting anyone.


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