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Need a new term for being lofted horizontally!

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RickI
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Re: Need a new term for being lofted horizontally!

Postby RickI » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:39 pm

Lofting certainly got my attention at the time or at least once my head returned to normal after a few months. I defined the term to cover most types of involuntary lifting with a kite. As you say it was a lot easier to have to deal with this with traditional C-kits than the current BOW and high depower kites. You had to anticipate problems with traditional C kites as the limited depower would see you lofted/yarded if your kite was still up when the wind became too strong. You certainly have frequent nuclear conditions in Cape Town by comparison to fairly calm South Florida, outside of squalls and hurricanes of course.

Was there a squall blowing over around 2 pm or did the wind just spike without much change in sky conditions?
Hugh2 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:57 pm
Thanks RickI, you've been around longer and seen more than me. Agreed that "lofting" could cover this kind of thing as well. And that the design of modern kites makes this situation much more manageable than with the old C-kites, where it would be extremely dangerous, indeed I cannot imagine being out in those conditions with my old C-kites, and I never had one that small.

For Toby, we've kited on days like this before on our lake, one spring day even stronger with our best kiter going out first on a 3.5m, and I've kited in Cape Town in conditions similarly strong where I had to go down to a rented 4m (while Kevin Langaree was still on a 9m! Sort of like that famous video of his from last season). So it is manageable with the right kites and enough experience, but obviously a bit risky. Indeed, I did come in after that lofting and took a break, and by the time I went back out again, just after 2PM on that graph, conditions had mellowed and one could do controlled jumps instead.

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Re: Need a new term for being lofted horizontally!

Postby Toby » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:17 pm

not touching this little stuff anymore plummet. never.

Long time ago. So, to your theory no one died of death looping in the last 8 years?

What about missteering the kite and crashing? not happening anymore I guess. Small kites are so much safer now....no problem to go out in 50 knots!

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Re: Need a new term for being lofted horizontally!

Postby Hugh2 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:01 am

RickI, nothing obvious associated with the strong gusts, except you mostly had good warning with "smoke on the water" coming towards you. The gust that got me was not obvious, however, perhaps not quite down to the surface, hence hit the kite without me anticipating it.

Toby, I'm not talking about kiting in 50 knots, that would truly be hectic. Our situation was mostly 30-40 mph with gusts to 50, so that's more like 25-35 knots with gusts to 45. Entirely manageable most of the time even for us old guys, and some younger but less experienced ones, using modern 5, 5.5 and 6m kites. There were six of us out, although only two of us saw the strongest conditions. I would do it again, but I much prefer the less gusty conditions of Cape Hatteras (like the Thursday the edge of Hurricane Michael came through a couple weeks ago) or in Cape Town (like the day Kevin Langaree's 28m jump video showed).

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Re: Need a new term for being lofted horizontally!

Postby matth » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:35 am

fuuucked

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Re: Need a new term for being lofted horizontally!

Postby styleito » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:18 am

Toby wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:17 pm
So, to your theory no one died of death looping in the last 8 years?
Far fewer than have been killed by having a too large kite.

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Re: Need a new term for being lofted horizontally!

Postby RickI » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:30 am

Give Toby his due, moderating a site like this for 17 years while living and breathing kiting, you gain a tremendous amount of both general and specific knowledge and examples. This applies regardless of the actual kites he uses and I value his opinion. I have done since 2002. I have studied a lot of fatalities but have yet to succeed in making myself one, fortunately. Despite that, I have gained a lot of insights into how it comes about and how to try to avoid it.

People casually talk about being out in 50 even 60 kt. plus conditions. How do people know that is in fact what they were out in? Nailing it down accurately can be a lot harder than it might seem. Some may actually do it but I suspect many may not? Or, am I wrong in this?

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Re: Need a new term for being lofted horizontally!

Postby Toby » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:58 am

styleito wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:18 am
Toby wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:17 pm
So, to your theory no one died of death looping in the last 8 years?
Far fewer than have been killed by having a too large kite.
Too large but still fast turning...that's the problem with death loop and getting lifted and steer incorrect.
Big slow kite lifts you up and brings you down softly if you keep in the zenith, and even if you steer a bit. But a bit on a fast kite sends you.

Rick, can you estimate the percentage of fatalities 25- and 25+ knots?

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Re: Need a new term for being lofted horizontally!

Postby Beardytello » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:56 am

RickI wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:30 am
Give Toby his due, moderating a site like this for 17 years while living and breathing kiting, you gain a tremendous amount of both general and specific knowledge and examples. This applies regardless of the actual kites he uses and I value his opinion. I have done since 2002. I have studied a lot of fatalities but have yet to succeed in making myself one, fortunately. Despite that, I have gained a lot of insights into how it comes about and how to try to avoid it.

People casually talk about being out in 50 even 60 kt. plus conditions. How do people know that is in fact what they were out in? Nailing it down accurately can be a lot harder than it might seem. Some may actually do it but I suspect many may not? Or, am I wrong in this?
I'm still pretty green, however I've probably logged about 150 sessions in my 2 years, I couldn't even conceive being out in 50kts, it seems ridiculous!

I've been out in 35kts gusting to 40 and it wasn't fun, I imagine obviously with time and experience those conditions become more fun but 50kts is insane.

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Re: Need a new term for being lofted horizontally!

Postby plummet » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:08 am

Yes. I too would like to here the stats of deaths related to wind speed. My memory is that the majority of deaths occur sub 30 knots.

Ricki, if you are referring to my call of 50-60 knots. How did I know the wind speed? We have a live weather station 1km upwind. It's proven to be very accurate for my local. It spits out wind data for every minute over a 24 hr period.

Now it is true that a fast small kite can get you into trouble fast if you fly it badly. It is a skill after all to master small kite flying. But, once mastered the small kite is vastly more positionable and can get you out of trouble a lot faster than a big slow kite can. In the instance of a horizontal teadbagging a big slow overpowered kite will take longer to pull up to the zenith than a tiny fast kite. You will be dragged for longer on the big kite before you gain control again. In many instances a big slow overpowered kite in moderate winds is a lot more dangerous than a fast powered kite in higher winds.

My beef with Toby is that his immediate position is big kite is safer than small kites. He advocates against small kite bigger wind flying than he is comfortable with yet he flys a massive kite well above the manufactures recommendation in a small lagoon close to other beach and water users. He is putting himself and others at a higher actual risk than op flying his 6m.

My position is that an overpowered kite is more dangerous than a kite that is not overpowered regardless of size. So flying a 5m kite in gusts to 30to 40 knots is typically within a the kites wind range. That is safer than flying an 18m in 25 knots.

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Re: Need a new term for being lofted horizontally!

Postby Toby » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:43 am

For you it is, for me not.

How many trick do you land and what were your injuries in the last 8 years?

My point is, I am giving an option to consider people what else is possible. But saying in general a small kite is safe is wrong. Many things to consider. You win here you loose there. At the end all have their dangers. But for me I found my least dangerous setup and conditions and that's why I can push further every time I am in the water. And there is no one doing it like me. I have a point, which you can't deny


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