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Cymatic (Tomo MPH) in kiteconstruction?

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Matteo V
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Re: Cymatic (Tomo MPH) in kiteconstruction?

Postby Matteo V » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:31 pm

TommyDuotone wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:31 am
..... with an extra 6 oz cloth added to the deck plus an additional 6 oz. patch for the front foot. I think s-cloth would be a bonus.
I second the S-glass. If you are just getting started laminating (patches, repair, or kitesurfboard construction) I would recommend:

Resin Research epoxy (UV stable)
6oz (actually 5.6oz) S-glass

That is the best bang for your buck. And you really do not need anything else, except mixing tools & cleanup supplies.

The only way E-glass is going to save you money is if you do SUP boards or very large lay ups.
Carbon "looks great" but is pretty useless for anyone who is not already experienced with glass layups and the next level - vacuum bagging.
Kevlar requires you to buy shears and bury it with glass AND keep light from getting to it (paint over it) - PITA with only some return on your investment - but it does make a slightly tougher board than S-glass.
3.7oz S-glass just seems like a waste for kitesurfboards. Though it could be useful when used for prone surfboards where light weight is valued over long term durability.

6oz S-glass is just so all purpose, easy to work with to get it right, beginner friendly, and high durability, that you really can't beat it. Kevlar is best for deck patches only.

Matteo V
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Re: Cymatic (Tomo MPH) in kiteconstruction?

Postby Matteo V » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:49 pm

bjw wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:05 am
Don't you guys have local shapers?

Save yourself the pain and expense and just find a local shaper that will design you a board , more suitable for kiting, stronger and customised to your needs.

If they haven't made a kite board before tell them you where you need reinforcing and you can even choose how strong vs heavy you want the foam.

This is going to piss a lot of people off.

Shapers are just like instructors. Some good and knowledgeable of local conditions, their riding style, how to adapt their favored shapes to other riding styles, and the desires of the customer. Some are the opposite of that (edited to put nicely) .

The reason why Cobra factory boards are so popular is there are lots of them (same model, borrow on the beach) to try. Thus you can try a board you think you may like, realize you do not like it, and move on. If you do like the board, you also have a chance on the used market to replace it once you trash your first one. You can only have the same success with custom boards if you do one of the following:

1. Get the best shaper in the world.
2. Actually find a good shaper and have enough money to have a few boards made for you to try out, then have enough money to have the same board made again.
3. Get extremely lucky with an average shaper.
4. Make yourself about 10 boards, and on board 11 to 20, you might have a good one.

So to spend the most money and take the biggest risk - get a shaper.
To spend a bit less money but still get a near perfect board - demo a Doyle, and pick which model you like, and have them make that.
To spend even less money, buy a new factory board.
To spend the least money and try the greatest variety of shapes and sizes and fin config that you may have never thought to try, get into the used market.


This treatise ignores the natural human desire to follow fashion and hype, and thus is void for about 95% of the kiting population. Though it does manifest itself in reality with it's relation to economic factors to a much higher degree.

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jjm
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Re: Cymatic (Tomo MPH) in kiteconstruction?

Postby jjm » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:01 pm

Doesn't look like they have the Cymatic plan but you can get other Tomo shapes custom built - http://epoxysurfboards.com/product-cate ... urfboards/

RalfsB
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Re: Cymatic (Tomo MPH) in kiteconstruction?

Postby RalfsB » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:02 am

bjw wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:05 am
Don't you guys have local shapers?
I am a local shaper. But it does not mean I do not want to ride a fine board made by a global shaper.

bjw
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Re: Cymatic (Tomo MPH) in kiteconstruction?

Postby bjw » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:49 am

RalfsB wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:02 am
bjw wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:05 am
Don't you guys have local shapers?
I am a local shaper. But it does not mean I do not want to ride a fine board made by a global shaper.
Absolutely, if you can't make a board of the same quality or performance. But a global shaper like DT, Cab or Tomo doesn't make it necessarily a good board. Tomos aren't even designed with kiting in mind.

RalfsB
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Re: Cymatic (Tomo MPH) in kiteconstruction?

Postby RalfsB » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:40 pm

bjw wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:49 am
But a global shaper like DT, Cab or Tomo doesn't make it necessarily a good board. Tomos aren't even designed with kiting in mind.
If we are talking about wave boards that most kitesurfing companies produce, they are just surfboards with footstrap inserts and stronger shell, there is hardly anything else kitesurfing-specific in their design. And mostly their shapes are very conservative. On the other hand, Firewire's board designers have produced many innovative features (that later have been followed/imitated by kitesurfing companies). So if I see an intriguing new shape that has great reviews from wave riders why shouldn't I buy it, reinforce and try for kitesurfing, see if it works for my riding style and local conditions. If it does, I have something to learn from.

Matteo V
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Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
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Re: Cymatic (Tomo MPH) in kiteconstruction?

Postby Matteo V » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:58 pm

RalfsB wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:40 pm
If we are talking about wave boards that most kitesurfing companies produce, they are just surfboards with footstrap inserts and stronger shell, there is hardly anything else kitesurfing-specific in their design.
Gotta look good for the masses if you want to sell en masse! Funky shapes tend to sit on the shelf for too long for retailers to stock. My personal experience was that I hated kitesurf specific directionals (ancient naish boards) because my experience was bad on them. So I my narrow thought process only allowed me to focus on a "traditional" shortboard shape and volume. After owning and using a wide variety of boards, I came to the conclusion that a "traditional" surfboard has some huge drawbacks unless you are just trying to simulate prone surfing (strapless) with a kite. If you try strapped again after a stint going strapless, the limitations of a longer and higher volume board become VERY apparent.

Most kitesurfers gravitate toward strapless before they have ever been on a surfboard with a kite. This means that they go in with the attitude that "strapless is the only kitesuring that is cool" - THAT IS HOW EVEN I STARTED OUT! Thus, that is what sells for the first few boards until you get good enough to realize the potential of riding a better shape for kitesurfing. If you have prone surfing experience, you initially go into directional kiteboarding wanting to simulate the prone surfing experience. If you have no prone surfing experience, you want to make it as close to prone surfing as you can without having to do all the work. Heck, most "kitesurf only" (with no prone surfing experience kiters) think they would make pretty good prone surfers once they learn to ride waves with a kite. But they get a pretty big surprise if they eventually do try prone surfing.


Bottom line is that the mentality of most kitesurfers in the market is toward low powered strapless riding with a focus on limiting the experience to simulating surfing. That is what sells. And most factory board offerings are geared toward this. The use of low volume boards, even while strapless, is the fringe. Ride strapped for a while, do MORE than just bottom turn, smack the lip, then repeat, and you will find yourself going for a shorter and lower volume board.

BWD
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Re: Cymatic (Tomo MPH) in kiteconstruction?

Postby BWD » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:17 pm

Tomos aren't even designed with kiting in mind.
Actually, I think he did a lot of surf kiting while developing the vanguard, the first MPH that really caught on.
There's an old interview in which he discusses this. The focus was on surfing, but kiting at least had an influence on the evolution of these boards.

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Re: Cymatic (Tomo MPH) in kiteconstruction?

Postby chibern » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:51 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:27 am
bjw wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:05 am
local shapers
Got $3,000 spare? It's literally cheaper to get one custom made in Europe and shipped over :lol:
Got this shaped by Brian Bulkley (San Clemente, CA) for around $625. He's legit - ghost shapes for Lost... and others and I've had my last few surfboards shaped by him. Got some deck pads on sale so around $700 ready to go for a custom board.

I'm just a beginner strapless kitesurfer so I just had him make a scaled down version of the old surfboard (that he also shaped) that I was learning on.

2x6oz glass + 3/4 layer 6oz S-glass on top
1x4oz glass + 1x4oz S-glass + carbon tape on bottom
FCS II fin boxes - 5 fin setup
he's made a few other kiteboards so he "kite-tified" this shape a little - harder rails, concaves and a couple other small details.
5'9" x 19.25" x 2.3" 28.9L (I'm about 195lbs and deal with low winds in SoCal so figured I needed the volume)

Rides like a dream for me so far but I haven't been able to test it in real waves yet. No durability testing yet either but it should last awhile.

Not saying this is the end all be all of kite surfboards but just saying custom can be a reasonable option...
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BWD
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Re: Cymatic (Tomo MPH) in kiteconstruction?

Postby BWD » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:01 pm

That’s a good way to go! Board looks nice.
There are a lot (well, maybe a few dozen) guys like that scattered about with 1000’s of boards under their belts, many for the big labels, who can produce for you as well as anyone, usually for $500-800.
In my opinion it’s a great way to go if you know what you like at all, and know something of the shaper’s style.


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