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Wave oriented hydrofoil

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Wave oriented hydrofoil

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:08 am

flying grandpa wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:04 am
Kamikuza wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:30 am
Problem with a draggy foil IM uneducated O is you then need a bigger kite to overcome the drag and that sucks.

You can set up high AR foil to decrease both -max speed and drag at low speed.
Just increase by the same amount AoA of both wings - front and rear. Just 2-4 deg is enough.
Useful for begginers and waveriders.

I dont understand this - can you explain ?

When you change AOA on both wings you will change the fuselage "flow" direction so it might have a tad less drag (or more, depending on the specific design) at low speeds yes.
And reverse - more (fuselage) drag at higher speeds

But your overall lift is not bigger, in fact precisely the same, thus you can not ride slower.

You get the board pointing 2-4 degrees more "down" with the nose, which might give you a placebo effect so you will try to keep it horisontal thus ride closer to or above the stall point, but I dont assume this is your target ?

8) PF

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Re: Wave oriented hydrofoil

Postby BraCuru » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:39 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:17 am
If it's anything like the Double Agent then it's not noticeably a problem for free ride...
I agree.
It would be great to see Moses coming back with improved FR450 or FR425.
flying grandpa wrote:You can set up high AR foil to decrease both -max speed and drag at low speed.
Just increase by the same amount AoA of both wings - front and rear. Just 2-4 deg is enough.
Useful for begginers and waveriders.
OK - good tip but the high AR is much, much less manoeuvrable than low AR.
In my mind AR biger than 4 is simply no go for waves. The most I loved where the one with AR below 3.
Simply skiing analogy.
We want to ski in a snowpark.
Manufacturers provide only race and freeride skis.
People try and even enjoy it because they don't have any better gear.
Give them the twintip park skis and they will open new World of fun, break limits of imagination, reach nirvana and even get to the Olympics ;)

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Re: Wave oriented hydrofoil

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:14 pm

flying grandpa wrote:You can set up high AR foil to decrease both -max speed and drag at low speed.
Just increase by the same amount AoA of both wings - front and rear. Just 2-4 deg is enough.
Useful for begginers and waveriders.

I dont think above is correct, why should it be like that ?

Usually you decrease the AOA of the rear wing a bit, for beginners, or increase the front wing AOA (but will also decrease overall lift slightly so you can not go slower)
Changing AOA the same on both wings, will make your fuselage more draggy if it was flow aligned beforehand, and wings summed same lift - so you lose a bit of lift, although not much, and get more drag, if the fuselage points "downwards" now :wink:

8) PF

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Re: Wave oriented hydrofoil

Postby Kamikuza » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:36 pm

BraCuru wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:39 am
OK - good tip but the high AR is much, much less manoeuvrable than low AR.
I think it's the width of the high AR wings that "ruins" agility--rolling resistance isn't the right phrase, but their resistance to rolling :D slows down the edge to edge response. Very noticeable going from LF to SS, for example . . . and now I'm wondering how the Zeeko Carver wing is . . .

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Re: Wave oriented hydrofoil

Postby BraCuru » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:16 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:36 pm
I think it's the width of the high AR wings that "ruins"...
Sure! You are right. I meant the span.
Maybe some day we might see high AR with the span of only 40cm. It would be great for speed records.
The long span is bad for wave riding.
I think that max 45cm span and AR 2,5 front wing would make a great tool for waves.
Wonder to see if any manufacturer would dare to test a 40cm and AR2,0 wing.

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Re: Wave oriented hydrofoil

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:25 pm

BraCuru wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:16 pm
Kamikuza wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:36 pm
I think it's the width of the high AR wings that "ruins"...

Sure! You are right. I meant the span.
Maybe some day we might see high AR with the span of only 40cm. It would be great for speed records.
The long span is bad for wave riding.
I think that max 45cm span and AR 2,5 front wing would make a great tool for waves.
Wonder to see if any manufacturer would dare to test a 40cm and AR2,0 wing.

True - take a small race wing with low span, eventhough not low AR, and it is extremely lively and turns well, eventhough difficult in waves as you have to keep the speed up.

Also, you can change the "livelyness" by a margin is my experience, simply by using a bigger or smaller stabiliser (rear wing).

Makes a huge difference, and sometimes I use my smallest rear wing with my big 800 cm2 front wing, to get a fun lively playful foil in light winds.

Not sure you need super low AR for waves, just a "balanced" AR, and there are different other ways to obtain livelyness.

8) PF

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Re: Wave oriented hydrofoil

Postby windmaker » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:12 pm

Kept quiet on this thread till now because my experience foilboarding in waves although limited is completely different to what I have read here. Been foilboarding since 2005 and owned a bunch of different foils over the years and until recently a Sword 2.

Two months ago I purchased an F-one hybrid free ride foil (I am F-one distributor) because I wanted to experiment riding waves and it was cheaper to replace than the sword in case of damage (rocky beach) and each individual part could be customized or replaced separately.

I tested 2 stabilizers (300 cm2 freeride and 210 race) in combination with 800 and 600cm2 freeride wings AR 5, 600 cm2 Carving wing AR4, and 510cm2 Race wing AR6.

My favourite set up was 510 race front wing with 210 race stab as it is the one that gives me the most control when screaming down a wave. The others felt too powerful for my weight (65kg) and didn't have as good a glide. Although the Race 510 wing carves real nice I am not sure a foil that carves as tight as possible is necessary either.

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Re: Wave oriented hydrofoil

Postby Starsky » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:57 pm

You must be going fairly quickly.

It kinda depends on HOW you like the ride waves, and certainly what kind of waves were talking. Most of us are flirting with the outside and not really getting into the same critical spots we do on other boards. Depth being the excuse, but a tumbling foil being the primary reason! I think in reality there are a lot of variables.

Some will like going pretty slow by foil standards in everything from lake swell to decent ground swell, in order to ride mostly wave power with very little kite. Bigger wings like the carver are likely a good fit for that.

Some will want to rip down the line with a lot of speed from the kite and end up way out front of the wave for portions and right up on it for others. A smaller med/high aspect wind is probably the goods.

Not sure span has as much an impact as anhedral. A lot of the really fast race foils with anhedral feel really stable but quite locked in at speed. Probably not what someone looking for playful ride on swell is after.

My wings are both dead flat. I have a rear vertical fin that I will scale down to 1" from 2" stock. Med aspect wings have felt really good so far for a cross section of beginner wave riding. Fast enough to be fun in really small swell where your going from one to another pretty frequently, but well able to slow down and enjoy the wave in bigger stuff where you can stay on one swell as long as you have the depth.

The relationship between aspect ratio, outline, and profile is a complex one. I'm excited to see where it goes, but imagine somewhere in the middle ground will be where we settle.

The canard concept will add another variable. By all accounts it changes the balance point making for a more rear foot driven feel that reportedly adds some joy to the carving.

Bet it will take another few years to settle out to the point we have a half dozen truly wave targeted foils on the market.

I know already despite not having the greatest waves to ride, I'll be on a wave foil.

Switching from slalom gear to a chunky wave board saved the last few years of windsurfing for me. I wont take as long to learn the same lesson this time around.

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Re: Wave oriented hydrofoil

Postby bigtone667 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:36 pm

Bletti wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:20 pm
Get the Zeeko with the Carver Wing. Magic in the waves and flat water. I don't often get over 18knots with the BRM Clouds, but I have no issues going around 6/7/8 knot mark.
I have the El Stubbo and Shinnster, BRM Paipo boards. El Stubbo is too small for the larger gent, but the Shinnster and BRM paipo work really well.

Also helps to have a non-race kite in the waves to slow down or a kite that will de-power completely and drift along with you.
[/quote]

How do you find the flex of the brm paipo and shinnster (or do you have the carbon plate version)? I built a diy carbon plate for my first generation shinnster that works pretty well, though I'd like it just a touch stiffer.

I have the spitfire which I like a lot but I'm tempted to either build a larger low speed wing or wait for zeeko to release a larger set
[/quote]

I asked Greg Drexler whether paipo would need strengthening and he said it would be fine. So I bolted a Spitfire straight to it. Hardly any flex at all. The whole unit is super light for an alu foil.

I have the shinn carbon fibre plate on the shinnster and that works quite well. I cannot feel any flex at all.

I went through a phase of testing light wind board options, and I bolted the Carver onto a CrazyFly light wind door. Certainly had a lot of flex in that, so I added a stiffener (block of pine), and it worked really well.

I am hoping Mr Zeeko comes out with the equivalent of the carver wing for the spitfire.

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Re: Wave oriented hydrofoil

Postby flying grandpa » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:57 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:08 am
flying grandpa wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:04 am
Kamikuza wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:30 am
Problem with a draggy foil IM uneducated O is you then need a bigger kite to overcome the drag and that sucks.

You can set up high AR foil to decrease both -max speed and drag at low speed.
Just increase by the same amount AoA of both wings - front and rear. Just 2-4 deg is enough.
Useful for begginers and waveriders.

I dont understand this - can you explain ?

When you change AOA on both wings you will change the fuselage "flow" direction so it might have a tad less drag (or more, depending on the specific design) at low speeds yes.
And reverse - more (fuselage) drag at higher speeds

But your overall lift is not bigger, in fact precisely the same, thus you can not ride slower.

You get the board pointing 2-4 degrees more "down" with the nose, which might give you a placebo effect so you will try to keep it horisontal thus ride closer to or above the stall point, but I dont assume this is your target ?

8) PF
You've got it rigt with the fuse. I couldn't explain it any better.
Mext sentence is a little overinterpretation. I did not say you can go slower. I said you can reduce max speed - and drag at low speed.
You are also right with lower nose.
Additionally, you will need less front foot pressure. That may ask for straps to go few cm back, but you don't use any, as I know.
Have fun.
Tadeusz.


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