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Canard Foil

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BWD
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby BWD » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:41 am

Crazy still looks more suited to a >40hp outboard than a 2-4hp kite if their renderings are anything to go by.

jaros
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby jaros » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:09 am

I am curious is there's any kiter reviews of the new version of CrazyFoil. http://crazyfoil.com/shop/
As far as I know, this must be the first kiteboarding hydrofoil, that has all the components made from extruded alu profiles. All others are using extruded alu only for the mast. I can see some future in this especially in the low cost side of the market. Maybe not so much in this particular modular concept, but in a simplified, beginner friendly construction.
I wish them well, and hope to see some videos of the actual product in use.
Greetings,
Jaros

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Starsky
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby Starsky » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:55 pm

I kinda hope for the opposite.

I'd really like to see some carbon canard foils. As it is, a huge percentage of current riders wont go back to aluminum.

I'd love to see other foil makers try the concept as well as home builders in order to get more understanding of how the it might evolve. As is, there is really only one canard set up for kiting. I'm pretty certain the fact that foil has smaller faster wings makes it less attractive to a lot of wave/free ride oriented riders. People will need to see a few other canards working to build real demand.

Until Zeeko makes a carbon version, the concept will be perceived as underdeveloped.

Once the platform develops a little further, it will be important to make it out of carbon just to get it widely tested.

A year ago I though I would be hunting for my ideal carbon foil by now. At this point. I'll stick with what I have until this concept either proves itself or not.
Last edited by Starsky on Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jzh_perth
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby Jzh_perth » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:14 pm

I don't really agree with some of the comments above. Ive been foiling just over 2 years and have moved away from carbon foils back to Aluminimum as they offer me sufficient performance for my skill level and are significantly cheaper to buy and repair. I am mostly into free riding altqhough I did race for 1 season on a KFA Mako vx601 carbon foil (now sold) I also still own one of Gunnars Barracuda carbon foils to but I don't ride that either. Interesting comments about the importance of carbon - that's not been my experience at all.

Right now In Addition to the barracuda, I own both Zeeko Green and White and the Zeeko Spitfire. I absolutely love both for how differently the are and how well the complement each other, and for simple free riding I cannot justify 2 xor 3x the price for fundamentally the same experience.

Plus the zeeko wings are much easier to repair with putty if and when I ding them on the reef :)

I would encourage anyone to give a decent aluminium foil a go. Most kiters I know struggle to buy new equipment let alone €2500 carbon foils....

I doubt Greg Drexler from BRM would have any more fun on a carbon foil either....

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Starsky
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby Starsky » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:31 pm

I applaud your ability to think freely and agree with you that it's by no means necessary. I am absolutely satisfied with my alloy foil and will happily improve as a rider on it for years to come. Will not upgrade until something obviously better for what I do presents itself.

This is however my primary sport and passion, and foiling looks to be my primary way of doing it moving forward, so I wont rule out a lighter more convenient set up someday.

My want to see a carbon canard is kind of two fold. Sadly I just think the optics to the general market are that a concept not offered in carbon is somehow an inferior one. This is not really a reflection of the truth so much as a reflection of market perception. The kite market is filled with gear freaks and some pay a grand for a carbon twin tip and tout it as the second coming of sliced bread! Half of kiters actually look at wind range charts when deciding between models of kite!! I truly think that if you want to see more demand for a canard foil, (in a market where all the high end foils are carbon) your going to have to build it out of carbon.

Secondly and more practically, it just seems that carbon is a far faster way to R&D than tooling up for alloy production. Small companies can move through prototyping much faster with fiber and resin. I would like to see faster evolution of the canard and for that reason would like to at least see pics of people building and testing em.

juandesooka
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby juandesooka » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:36 pm

Starsky wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:31 pm
it just seems that carbon is a far faster way to R&D than tooling up for alloy production. Small companies can move through prototyping much faster with fiber and resin. I would like to see faster evolution of the canard and for that reason would like to at least see pics of people building and testing em.
It sounds like you are talking about aluminum being used to make wings ... or when you say alloy production, do you just mean mast and fuselage? From what I have seen, seems like the wings are usually made of either G10 (spitfire) or carbon, with some of the cheapies made of plastic. Not that many made of aluminum? But then again, I haven't actually seen that many wings in person, so I could be wrong on that.

I have now got to see a spitfire in person and will shortly try carving out my own version in G10. I am going to experiment with making the wings 20% larger, to see if that helps with getting up on foil at slower speeds and light wind, while still being maneuverable. If it doesn't work, I can always carve them smaller -- but can't 'go the other way! :thumb:

Unfortunately, this experiment requires regular wind for testing, something that isn't happening around here ... after an exceptionally poor winter, the spring thermals are late in arriving.

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Starsky
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby Starsky » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:14 pm

Initially a response to the second post talking about all aluminum components, but then kinda speaking to the market in general.

In reality there are only a handful of manufacturers designing in alloy (LF, Zeeko, TKF, Alpine, Sroka) Can't really count Naish or Cab in a discussion about innovation in foil design! Would just like to see more interest in the concept in general, until we start seeing carbon builds, it means only a fraction of the foil designers out there are engaged in the idea. At the moment there is only really one!

My personal bet is that a company like Zeeko who build in both alloy and carbon will put out a carbon version when they feel they have a design that is selling well. If the spitfire makes it to a third generation... it will no doubt be offered in carbon.

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bragnouff
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby bragnouff » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:53 pm

If the idea of the Spitfire is to be a foil for riding waves, does it make sense though to make it out of carbon? Waves mean sand banks or reefs that you're likely going to hit every now and then. Maybe an alloy/G10 combo can handle a beating a bit better than a carbon setup?

borist
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby borist » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:35 am

bragnouff wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:53 pm
If the idea of the Spitfire is to be a foil for riding waves, does it make sense though to make it out of carbon? Waves mean sand banks or reefs that you're likely going to hit every now and then. Maybe an alloy/G10 combo can handle a beating a bit better than a carbon setup?
Certainly a good point, however minimal weight is also a big attraction for foil that should be agile. I see room for both if the concept becomes popular. I have the current spitfire and don't like its weight. It is the only Alu foil I own, rest are carbon.

juandesooka
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Re: Canard Foil

Postby juandesooka » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:48 am

Seems to me carbon is mostly used to make foils fast. Most of the freeride, turning oriented foils seem to be made of G10? (I could be wrong on that, my stringy wings are g10, as are the zeeko carver and now spitfire...only a few examples to go by) Is the extra wing weight really a factor in their turning ability? Speed shouldn't really be an issue, as for wave riding you need slow down so you don't outrun the wave.

I can see lighter carbon for mast and fuselage, if just for comfort in carrying it or in getting hit by it. But that's almost more aesthetics than on the water performance. I think that may have been starsky's point....if some people consider that a serious foil can only be made of carbon, then they may not consider a canard set up unless it is.


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