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Light LEI kites c",)

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tegirinenashi
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Re: Light LEI kites c",)

Postby tegirinenashi » Tue May 23, 2017 11:26 pm

abel wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 9:33 pm
...I weigted the Solo 12 V3 and it's also 3.4 kg like it's predecessor the v2...
Depending how you look at it it is either dumb design decisions, or lack of attention to details.

Consider Cabrinha Airlock 1 inflation valve. It was perfectly good feature for more than a decade when everybody used 9 mm ones. Then, competitors caught up and introduced something similar. Did they just copy Airlock 1? No, think bigger, they were compelled to offer larger, supposedly better orifices. For example, Boston valve on Switch kites weighs almost 50g. It was now cabrinha's turn to "upgrade" their perfectly working Airlock 1. What they came up with?
http://www.kitesurfing-shop.co.uk/buy/4 ... top-879118
This bad ass weights even more than Boston.

And who did outrun them all? Liquid force. And on top of their over sized valve, they provided standard one "in case if kiter lost/forgot their proprietary connector".

It is well known that linear size increase translates into cubic increase in weight. This is why Cabrinha Airlock 1 weight is minuscule compared to Boston. However, Airlock 2 and LF are even bigger!
Last edited by tegirinenashi on Tue May 23, 2017 11:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Light LEI kites c",)

Postby bigtone667 » Tue May 23, 2017 11:29 pm

Bletti wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 11:43 am
Switch is working on a ~7-9-12m mono-strut too, which should be out in the next few months hopefully. Unlike some of the mono-strut kites out there (north, airush, LF, naish) that are marketed as all round light wind strapless, twintip, foiling, Switch is focusing the development of their mono-strut solely for foiling (although I'm hoping they drift well to also strapless wave ride with). I've asked on their forum for the weight a while back but haven't heard back, but the prototype looks like it should be pretty light!
Looks a bit like a Cloud C2 with a strut.

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Re: Light LEI kites c",)

Postby Pedro Marcos » Tue May 23, 2017 11:51 pm

I just ordered a Storm Voyager 12m, lets see how low i can ride with it. Anyone can tell me if a Slingshot bar connects diretly to the storm pigtails? Or i need to make some conversion?

Thanks

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Re: Light LEI kites c",)

Postby Bletti » Wed May 24, 2017 1:34 am

tegirinenashi wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 4:45 pm
I wonder why Switch didn't expand Helium product line to smaller sizes. Helium is higher AR kite compared to Nitro (and presumably lighter too), so there is no product lineage overlap. (Speaking of overlap, some manufacturers have as many as 7 supposedly different LEI models!)
Switch are keeping the Helium 15.5 and 18m for general light wind (surfboard/tt) and doing the purpose built for foiling mono strut for 12-9-7 smaller sizes to avoid product overlap. I agree with their approach as it's better to build a foil orientated kite from scratch than to scale down the helium into smaller sizes where the side struts aren't as beneficial to support a smaller area of canopy. That way they can get a more responsive and lighter kite per area catering to foilers in the smaller sizes. Plus, the market of single/no strut kites is growing so they probably feel they'll sell more small mono-strut kites than small helium.

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Re: Light LEI kites c",)

Postby mikesids » Wed May 24, 2017 4:54 am

Thought I would chime in with my point of view , as I have tried a whole lot of kites for foiling since learning to foil a couple of years back. I learned on 3 strut Naish Parks ( 2012), a 10m and a 14m – they were OK but I soon learned the following:
• If you can’t relaunch the kite off the water easily you can’t learn to foil, or get back to your board
• If the kite can’t stay in the air at the edge of the window in a lull you can’t learn to foil, or get out when the wind is onshore – see point one
• Being overpowered sucks
• Big kites that can’t be adequately depowered also suck
• Preserving / creating line tension becomes a major deal after a crash as you usually have to go a fair way to retrieve the board – often you are in far lighter conditions than with a twin tip so having the kite maintain its steerability is important as you body drag back to the board

So since then I have been pursuing the holy grail – a kite that has great range (so you don’t need to change up or down sizes if conditions change or are gusty), hangs in lulls and drifts well, maintains steering low in the window after a crash or when trying to get out in onshore conditions, relaunches in light conditions, has enough power to get you up on the board, reasonably light bar pressure, good depower within an arm’s length. I have realised that there is no such “unicorn” of a kite , and that it is all about what trade-off’s you are prepared to accept – I strongly suggest that anyone slagging off a particular kite try to bear in mind the trade-off’s that the designer or company was striving for. (Note: I have pursued low end foiling conditions more than high end conditions, there’s a lot of guys locally who just use small wave kites for windier conditions)

My personal experiences:

1: Zeeko Notus Air (12m) : +ve = robust build, top end range
-ve = steering not super light, bottom end not amazing, relaunch in light conditions. Behaviour in lulls (eg overhead or at edge of window) is average , not exceptional
Summary = clearly designed more for top end than low end range. Good for gusty conditions where a lower aspect design might overpower sooner. A 12 that behaves like a 10.

2: LF Solo v1 9m: +ve = low end, drift in lulls, great relaunch. Good with a twin tip, great jumper, well built
-ve = top end , is a grunty kite for its size so there’s a risk of being overpowered if the wind comes up
Summary = the opposite design philosophy to the Notus Air. More grunt from a smaller size. A 9 that behaves like a 10. Even though is not built super light it actually drifts really well ( falls back when overhead in lulls , similar to the Cloud) , and steers well at edge of window – very forgiving. Handles longer lines well too. I think LF are trying to pitch this kite at the widest possible audience ( incl twin tippers), not sure why they have defocused the marketing pitch for the v3 away from foiling as it seems to go well for this (esp in the 9m size).

3: Cloud C2 (12m): +ve = drift , stability and steerability in lulls ( best of any LEI I have tried), relaunch in lulls ( once you know the technique), power generation to get up on foil
-ve = top end in gusty conditions , not so good for a twin tip compared to other designs
Summary = superb if wind conditions are stable and don’t increase too much, hangs in the air like a foil kite ( it has saved my session many times) . Its super light build hasn’t been an issue re durability thus far

4: Ozone Edge ( 2013, 9m): +ve = range , stability in gusty conditions, power
-ve = loses steerability when highly depowered ( heads down to water), relaunch in light winds, drift in lulls

5: F One Furtive (8 and 10m): +ve = range, drift, turning speed , stability, steering when depowered
-ve = relaunch in lulls
Summary = lighter on bar than Edge , more drift , better depower and steering when depowered, but probably less power size for size even though both are high aspect. I believe it was designed to behave well and stay in control when overpowered for speed kiting, whereas the Edge pulls harder and is designed to be more of a powerhouse for jumping etc. The 8m Furtive in particular is super sweet for foiling, surprisingly good stability in lulls (and great for speed kiting, naturally).

6: Chrono v2 Ultralight (11m) – my curiosity re foil kites got the better of me ! : +ve = amazing drift and performance in lulls , good power spike for getting going, very forgiving, good relaunch, upwind ability
-ve=complexity vs an LEI, some launch spots are unsuitable for a foil made with lightweight cloth ( eg when shelly or with sharp objects), expensive, potentially complicated pack down on water vs an LEI

So what do I use when?
- My local shelly inner harbour beach ( which is tidal and has a long walk to launch depth , so is a real pain if you need to change kite sizes) – if stable 10kts or under = Cloud 12m. If gusty ( 8-13kts) either the Notus Air or Solo. If gusty 12-20kts I’d use the Furtive 8m. Have now sold the Edge 9m.
- My local sandy beach – Chrono UL 11m for 8-15kts, esp if the wind has lots of lulls or if there’s not too much chop , and also because it has a different feel to the above kites which can be fun – if I want to race around at high speed this is my choice. Solo is probably my other most used kite in this spot as it covers a really useful range and the chance of needing to come in and change up or down is reduced

I hope this helps in some way. There’s a lot of us looking for the ideal foiling kite, but as I said it is really a question of understanding what properties are most important to you and what you are prepared to compromise on . There’s a lot of factors to consider , one of the most important to me overall is whether the kite is a low end or high end biased design – especially important if you kite in gusty conditions

All of the above kites have some really good qualities, and some areas that I wish were a little better or different. None of them are dogs.

Disclaimer: I pay for all my own gear, no brand alliances ( as you can see !). Sorry for the long post :-)

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Re: Light LEI kites c",)

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed May 24, 2017 6:18 am

Mikesids, really good walkthrough your experiences and liking :thumb:

Agree with almost everything :D

Have ridden so many of them, and my friends experiences too.

My personal choice for 7-9 knots are the 12 m2 Zeeko Notus Air, as it can stay in the air in less than I can ride, turns extremely fast (a must for fun IMO).
The relaunch isnt great nope - but in these winds it is often a no go anyways so does not matter for me.
Low end is medium, not as good as the grunty ones, but it is such a small difference that having the fast turning and the range is by far more important for me - particularly when riding toeside, I HATE kites that can not be depowered smoothly.
And eventhough not as grunty - its apparent wind power is good, so once up you can ride just fine - but in steady marginal wind there is a lower limit which more powerful kites fits better :naughty:
The one strut is great for both the ability to drift ashore if needed, for several reasons, also for launching, and for kitecam mount.

If I want to ride in 6½ to 7 knots I would need a gruntier one, like the Storm Voyager or Clouds or similar - but in 9 to 10 knots a 12 m2 in these are not my liking with the flapping.

Instead, in wind where my 12 m2 Air is not sufficient, I use an 11 m2 race foilkite instead, meaning when its 5 to max 7 knots (measured average in 10 m height).
Can often give you a swim of course, so having a grunty big Cloud or Voyager or Solo could be a choice - but they only start a tad earlier than my Air, so having the race foil kite is what really pushes the limit a lot because of its powerspike, having the right board/wing that is, so all the disadvantages regarding everything (when freestyle/freeride) are gone, when you ride on a hot summerday in "no wind" almost.
It is amazing though, that the Air can hang in the same wind as the foil kites, eventhough not nearly the same power(spike), so I often end up going ashore with kite up, where some racers got a downed kite.
So with the Voyager and Clouds this will be even better of course, this ability to stay aloft and go/loop ashore without dropping the kite :lol:

At my home spot a couple of weeks ago - summer is coming, out with my 12:

Image


Image


So yes, no light wind light LEI kites are in general "better" than others, they simply have different purposes - some like to ride a bit more powered and want relaunchability on water to be good, others want agility and range, some like struts for even more range, others want absolute max lowend and you could go on.

I could happily live with other choices and utilize their good sides and live with the bad ones - that is the good thing about it, they all work except the classic wavekites that are good below 10 m2 only IMO.

8) PF

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Re: Light LEI kites c",)

Postby Zeeko » Wed May 24, 2017 9:45 am

Hi

the french kiteboarder magazine tested the light inflatable kites,

here is the report of the test

regards
Nicolas
Image


Image

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Re: Light LEI kites c",)

Postby borist » Thu May 25, 2017 3:14 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 6:18 am
My personal choice for 7-9 knots are the 12 m2 Zeeko Notus Air, as it can stay in the air in less than I can ride, turns extremely fast (a must for fun IMO).
Peter, what line length do you usually ride Notus Air with? I recently bought Flite V4 12m and am a bit disappointed with power spike it generates. Looking at the picture, Flite looks very close as far as AR goes. Flite might be a touch heavier, although I'm not sure about that. I prefer 20m lines if possible because people and other obstacles at my usual spot, but Flite seems to scream for long lines in order to get more power to waterstart. Flite on 20m seems to generate less spike than my 9m ASV XR :(

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Re: Light LEI kites c",)

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu May 25, 2017 6:43 am

borist wrote:
Thu May 25, 2017 3:14 am
Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 6:18 am
My personal choice for 7-9 knots is the 12 m2 Zeeko Notus Air, as it can stay in the air in less than I can ride, turns extremely fast (a must for fun IMO).

Peter, what line length do you usually ride Notus Air with? I recently bought Flite V4 12m and am a bit disappointed with power spike it generates. Looking at the picture, Flite looks very close as far as AR goes. Flite might be a touch heavier, although I'm not sure about that. I prefer 20m lines if possible because people and other obstacles at my usual spot, but Flite seems to scream for long lines in order to get more power to waterstart. Flite on 20m seems to generate less spike than my 9m ASV XR :(

I often use 30 m lines when out with the 12 m2 Air, mostly because the wind can be fickle when 7-9 knots.

If steady closer to 9 knots I use std lines 26 m, but not quite as often as if it is 10-11 knots or more my 9 m2 Takoon Furia works.
So using a light bar and 30 m lines is my most used setup. If I used it in higher winds, I would always choose std 26 m.

Can not ride with shorter lines, unless it is really windy as the carves will suck bigtime otherwise - but just personal I know, others like short lines more wind.
And short lines in high wind is not my liking.

I think the Flite will behave quite similar, true the power spike is nothing compared to a foil kite, but line length is still everything in light winds, together with the right board and wing.
Particularly as the 12 m2´s dont deliver much usable powerspike on 20 m lines, thus your 9 m2 will probably deliver the very same spike (turns better), but on longer lines the bigger kites generates a useable power spike and definitely more overall power.

Long story short: I use 26 and 30 m lines with my 12 m2 Notus Air, depending on conditions - prefer 26 as then everything is fast and in sync like used to, but not always possible.

8) Peter

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Re: Light LEI kites c",)

Postby nothing2seehere » Thu May 25, 2017 1:12 pm

borist wrote:
Thu May 25, 2017 3:14 am
Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 6:18 am
My personal choice for 7-9 knots are the 12 m2 Zeeko Notus Air, as it can stay in the air in less than I can ride, turns extremely fast (a must for fun IMO).
Peter, what line length do you usually ride Notus Air with? I recently bought Flite V4 12m and am a bit disappointed with power spike it generates. Looking at the picture, Flite looks very close as far as AR goes. Flite might be a touch heavier, although I'm not sure about that. I prefer 20m lines if possible because people and other obstacles at my usual spot, but Flite seems to scream for long lines in order to get more power to waterstart. Flite on 20m seems to generate less spike than my 9m ASV XR :(
I fly my 12m Flite on 24m lines normally (twin tip etc) and 30m when the wind is light and for foiling. Its still a very reactive kite even on the 30m lines. Does require a bigger launch site though


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