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Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:54 am

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:06 am
Nice feedback.
Did you had to change the AoA of the main wing compared to with a rear wing ? What is the impact on low wind planning limit ?

I would think the difference is not noticeable !

The stabilizer got so little downlift, and today most use it with very little so it still stabilizes - but does not make the foil pop "up" like on planes or beginner foils with lower (lower = more down lift) stabilizer AOA.

For the same reason the planing limit will not really be changed either - but you get less drag and more performance if you can ride sufficiently steady, no doubt :thumb:

I did not notice any difference when I rode stabless on mine - but Horst will be able to answer this better of course :D

8)

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby revhed » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:10 pm

Nice flying man! :thumb:
I find it interesting your fore aft stance seems almost the same as if you used a stab.
It even looks like the center of lift is in front of the L E?
R H
I posted years ago that I thought mono wing KBHFs would come along but thought "special" design would be needed, but looks like this master does just fine with out!

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Horst Sergio » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:36 pm

Hi everybody and thanks for the interest,

@revhed:
I was surprised myself that even the high AR (think about AR 7) old "Aspect 3.0" wing now worked pretty well, as I tried it an year ago and thought it is just to hard.
I was thinking and discussing about ideal monowings with people like kite designers, not being noobs like my in hydrodynamic. But on the end the result was always:

Easy is:
big low AR wings as for example the levitaz cruizer, which is the easiest I know. All other ideas as sweeped back wings or high offset towards wing tips, can be helpful for normal airplanes, paragliders, kites ... but potentialy have no relevant effect if balance point is not about 1 time below wing span as on paragliders, but about 4 times above wing!
So there is maybe just human brains regulation capability and processor speed to count on :D AND, not to forget: to make the situation for its bodies and muscles as compfortable as possible:

Stance and AoA:
@Regis-de-giens:
AoA is not changeable for Levitaz system, but an pretty important point. First my stance is with mono strut full in front, front screw of back strap directly over struts trailing edge, with moderate stance. With stabi strut about 3 cm more to the back which should be roundabout the compensation of pressure point movement with and without stabi. Just finding this and maybe a bit experience enlarged my regular speed range significant, as if you compare this one with now often above 30 km/h with older tracks shown
Monofoil-Freeride-Freestyle-Tour.jpg
Track was first 8 km upwind than about 15 km downwind, than upwind again and freestyle on the end, see track picture at:
http://kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=19 ... 3&start=60

But even more important is to have a angle of actually calculating with 3 degrees set not inbetween wing and strut, but inbetween stance (upper deck) and boards lower deck, as also today I see many racers use it for a more compfortable riding position respecting balanced load through both legs under high load. While my load is normaly not so high, it is even more important to have both legs close to straight in the most challenging "high speed" moments at around 33 km/h to be able to push this limit further.

About lowering drag and low wind planning limit:
I believe that I was even able to feel the difference of the new reinforced levitaz strut bases-wing-connection compared to the old with smaller frontal area (around 1 cm² difference maybe), why I kept the old weaker struts. The experience with my old race foil, I was riding with fun for two days, once again was like: Oh, it is so more draggy and needs so much more kite power to get going and difficutly to reach high angles against the wind in the low end. ... But I don't have any real numbers to show, just a few tracks with high upwind angles which may show that it is not just a feeling.

But to maybe get clear values, I have set up this topic to ask for them, if somebody else can give it to us:

http://kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2399994

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Horst Sergio » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:43 am

Anything better than being a kiter and having a Monofoil to ride?


Having TWO Monofoils :rollgrin: ……… and as they are monos, they will still fit more easily into your car trunk as one stabi foil :P
Kitejunkie-Monofoils.jpg
The big high AR is more experimental, than for all day use and also less showing the core idea of monofoiling, which is riding save with out pointy wing tips. But having riden this and others new monos a few times I learned:

Even high AR wings are rideable,
but it is still the advise to never try to start with them monofoiling, as learning will be pretty close to impossible. But if experienced and once you made the start it is impressive how "easy" and "stable" also these wings can be. In some ways they are even more gentle as lower surface means less agressiv lift, if pitch is to high for a moment. Also speed window was wide enough to easily do 360, flying landings, flying tacks, etc.

But I still expect speed window in contrast to stabi foils will still be better on the low AR wings.
Kitejunkie-Monofoil-Speed-Window.jpg
Kitejunkie-Monofoil-Speed-Window.jpg (53.33 KiB) Viewed 1456 times
Lessons learned, also for normal stabi foiling:

I am now sure also with a mono you can go beyound 40 km/h, so even faster than many beginner stabi foils, as with the small one I had serveral uncounted spikes over 40 km/h and serious values till 38 km/h.
I think I was wrong, that the personal boarder is the brain and reaction time, I now think, it is much more about a good board setting:
In my experience similar as also for stabi foils, Vmax is very much about a compfortable riding position with both legs nearly straight at the highest speed.
As with any foil and especially low AR foils you have to reduce pitch a lot to keep the higher current causing more lift at the constant level of your weight pushing against. So the faster you go, the more the nose comes down.
If you start to have a uncompfortable position at your personal top speed with your back leg angled hard this will cause the lack of control that will lead to a wipe out, there is not to much to do against by only using a foot positon more back or a strut more to front.

What you have to do is shiming inbetween strut and wing or as I did with a plate inbetween strut and board. Both is the same as long you additionally compansate foot or strut position.

If doing so the only question is how much shimming: I am at 2,5° actually, depending on board and its angle inbetween lower and upper deck, loking to find the best compromise inbetween a good high speed and low speed shim as if exaggerating with the shim you may start to have an uncompfortable low or normal speed position with an angled front leg. On the other hand by shimming you will also influence your mean compfortable cruizing speed.

So don't set up your body position and style to your foilboard, but the other way around. :wink:


… and last about going back to stabi foils:
In the last time I used stabi foils for close to 10 days, especially as I wanted to redo the nice 360 galactical manouver and so I also learned again to ride stabi foils :-? , which was a bit hard at the beginning :oops: and my jibes are maybe still better on the mono :) … but apart from galactical, sitting and for sure the canery man, I don't miss anymore anything on the mono and therefore will keep one stabi, as I kept my twintip for many years without using it. But there is no doupt that I will never go back apart for a short occasion.

Saying this, I still just want to motivate all experiended foil kiter to think about:
Twintip -> Directional -> Stabifoil -> Monofoil …. could be the way to go,
if you start being tired of foiling. :bye:

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:30 am

Nice report . Temptation ...
And i wonder what will be the next "..." comimg after "monofoil ->..."
Any impact on minimum speed planning / light wind ?

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby ronnie » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:48 am

Philippe is now the first to ride a windfoil stabless.

https://www.facebook.com/Horuefoil/vide ... =3&theater

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Horst Sergio » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:57 am

:thumb: Thanks Ronnie,

very nice one from Master Philippe Caneri again.
Unfortunately my windfoiling project stucked due to several reasons. But the goal was clear, first 100 m with stabi than cut it of, to learn it this time the right way from the start. :D
But the video interpretation could be, that it is not so easy, not even for Phil. While on the other hand especially for the combination of windfoiling and jumping the benefit for easier landings as on the kites could have a good potential.

@Regis:
After Monofoiling? I think therewould be just hoverboards that works like a monofoil on water and on land to improve, but I fear physics wont allow the joy, so better count on monofoiling for now :wink:
Image

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby ronnie » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:22 pm

Horst Sergio wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:57 am
:thumb: Thanks Ronnie,

very nice one from Master Philippe Caneri again.
Unfortunately my windfoiling project stucked due to several reasons. But the goal was clear, first 100 m with stabi than cut it of, to learn it this time the right way from the start. :D
But the video interpretation could be, that it is not so easy, not even for Phil. While on the other hand especially for the combination of windfoiling and jumping the benefit for easier landings as on the kites could have a good potential.

@Regis:
After Monofoiling? I think therewould be just hoverboards that works like a monofoil on water and on land to improve, but I fear physics wont allow the joy, so better count on monofoiling for now :wink:
Image
Without the stabiliser, the centre of lift should move aft a little. For windfoiling they generally use a 'mast' position about 8 to 10 cm further aft from the front wing.
Philippe is using a deep tuttle box, so no adjustment available from that.

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby TomW » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:30 pm

Horst-san,
You are a pioneer!

I am not good enough yet, but maybe next year I might experiment with mono foil using my 633 wing. I am curious SOB.

Can you explain simply how I should set up my Monofoil? Is it just to remove rear part of fuselage and stab wing and go?

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Horst Sergio » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:00 am

TomW wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:30 pm
Horst-san,
You are a pioneer!
No, just a follower of Philippe Caneri, spreading his message. :wink: [/quote]
TomW wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:30 pm
I am not good enough yet, but maybe next year I might experiment with mono foil using my 633 wing. I am curious SOB.
My recomendation to start is not before you are safe doing jibes with foot switch. I also had a guy a bit in front of this, succesfully trying and flying monofoil, but he wanted to stay with stabifoil to become better first, which makes more sense also in my eyes. The best point to start is when you are allready good in doing flying tacks, which is for sure a level not everybody will reach. But reason for this is, that to switch from stabi-flying-tack to mono-flying-tack is not that hard, so after some month you can be able to be back on full flying manouvers, while learning mono-flying-jibes with foot switch is much harder than lets say a caneri man.
TomW wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:30 pm
Can you explain simply how I should set up my Monofoil? Is it just to remove rear part of fuselage and stab wing and go?
Easy, for first it is enough to ride to the beach and ask somebody to unscrew your stabi, that's it.

All the other stuff discussed here comes later, but is not relevant or helpfull for the first days.

To give another aspect why it is a bit hard to motivate for monofoiling first, but also why it is so good especially for light wind:

From my experience and theory in comparision with a well build high AR freerace foil, a first try monofoil with low AR wings, but just a detached stabi and been riden at very low speed by a beginner can have a similar drag as the freerace foil as induced drag on low AR wings, low speed and therefore high pitch is pretty high. So in the first sessions nobody should expect to see any profit from monofoiling appart from the challenge.
The profit especially for light wind starts with time when you are able to ride higher Speeds (around 25 km/h, so low pitch, low drag) and if you have cut away the now senseless part of the stabi in a gentle way. In the a bit higher speed range you may find the sensation that while in the lowest wind the freerace stabifoil starts to encrease drag with speed and therefore makes it difficult to build up more apperent wind and to keep gliding in a lull, the monofoil in contrast can still decrease drag with speed, which makes it easier to speed up more and more till your personal limit, while riding insane upwind angles, all in any wind, that keeps your smallest kite flying.

In fact all my topspeeds have been set significant under 10 knts.

To help People, at least those with Levitaz foils, a bit to share this experience, I now alway have a third 0-fuselage with me, so if you see me on a spot just ask me. Also Mischa from www.kitejunkie.com has one additionaly in his shop, but as we don't have to many yet we don't send them around yet, but when we have more and we found a self cost price, we may do this aswell. Actually still experimenting with the best form, as on a low drag mono you can feel every small parasitic drag.
Kitejunkie's Levitaz Monofoil Fuselage.JPG


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