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Shoulders Forward?

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Jyoder
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Re: Shoulders Forward?

Postby Jyoder » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:59 pm

To waterstart like this, position the board like you normally would for strapless waterstart with back hand and then twist your hips with knees hugging your chest and plant your feet as you dive the kite, or loop it. Let the board get pulled to point downwind more than you usually would and lean back to get on foil as soon as possible. Just be careful you don’t fall backwards and kick the board up into your lines 👿

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Re: Shoulders Forward?

Postby geopeck » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:23 am

Re: shoulders forward..... Sorry, just cant dig it. like sitting or lying down on your foil. Novelty at best. Narrowing your base decreases agility. For any kind of dynamic carving, riding swell.... sideways stance is where its at!
Can't say I agree about the novelty aspect, I do it all the time on my directional, I expect that it will be fun on the foil. I usually don't go full side by side but put the feet at 45 degrees.
I use that when I'm toeside and want to get a better upwind angle but don't feel like messing with the foot switch, it's a good way to catch up to and mount the backside of a wave, then push your foot up on the drop in. More relaxed, not in a good carving position because of the instability front to back but a good way to take the strain off the back leg.

When snowkiting I'm not much of a skier but figure it's really about the same style of fun. I wouldn't go as far as setting up a set of straps like that though.

Sitting or lying on a foil - looks like something people do for a camera.

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Re: Shoulders Forward?

Postby Foil » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:54 am

Foil wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:06 pm
Laughingman wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:33 pm
interesting would it not be easy to switch your feet from that position? You are already half way there...
I am now using that stance(feet together snow ski style) but only in the right conditions,
not rough water with swell as I struggle to find the right body position when sailing over-up and down the waves and for getting high upwind.

Switching feet from that stance is for me not easy, not yet anyways, the falls are many, the board flys off violently and finding the right moment to do the switch is my big problem, it really is quite scary as there's no time for recovery if i get it even slightly wrong,and the move needs total commitment (and a deep breath)
you need to be so precise in the switch, and very fast.
ALSO I was surprised that when I touch down to see if i can cheat and use the water to stabilize me during the switch, the board is so much more unstable due to both feet being together, reminded me of sailing a windsurf board dead downwind with feet close together on a rough sea.
one day last week I managed loads of switches, with many many more crashes,then the next day in gusty winds and rough seas I managed just one, after which i gave up and gybed round to toeside instead for the rest of the day.
practice practice practice, and more practice.
and If I cant get it right for a 95% success rate then I will just fly round the corners facing forward feet together style, which does feel very much like i am skiing,
only much smoother.
went out in very challenging conditions yesterday, it was a battle to even get through the waves crashing me backwards in the gusty direct onshore winds, the confused heavy sea made it impossible for me to move my position to feet forward and together, shoulders facing forward.
more survival type conditions, maybe after many months of perfecting the stance, but maybe not.

Off today to a bay with flat water and calmer winds, sun is out so will spend around 3-5 hours practicing this stance and see if I really need to switch feet.

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Re: Shoulders Forward?

Postby K-Roy » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:07 pm

"Re: shoulders forward..... Sorry, just cant dig it. like sitting or lying down on your foil. Novelty at best. Narrowing your base decreases agility. For any kind of dynamic carving, riding swell.... sideways stance is where its at!"

Correct!
If you look at it from the technical point of you...

However, IMO if you master all these "gimmicks" you will not only have enough fun to give you a smile, but you will increase your sence of balance, coordination, board controll, which will come handy in the traditional way of riding as well.
And to be fair, I think it falls in the FreeStyle category...

cheers

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Re: Shoulders Forward?

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:43 pm

True - it makes no sense as such for anything no... :wink:

Apart from being "fun" just doing it, and the "feel" - but hey, isnt that what it is all about ? :naughty:

8) Peter

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Re: Shoulders Forward?

Postby jumptheshark » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:12 pm

K-Roy wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:07 pm
"Re: shoulders forward..... Sorry, just cant dig it. like sitting or lying down on your foil. Novelty at best. Narrowing your base decreases agility. For any kind of dynamic carving, riding swell.... sideways stance is where its at!"

Correct!
If you look at it from the technical point of you...

However, IMO if you master all these "gimmicks" you will not only have enough fun to give you a smile, but you will increase your sence of balance, coordination, board controll, which will come handy in the traditional way of riding as well.
And to be fair, I think it falls in the FreeStyle category...

cheers
Well, those are my comments, and I'll add to them. Ski stance or forward facing might be a teeny tiny itty bitty bit helpful in developing a more rounded balance and control, but there is something to be said for aesthetics. I simply think its like so much airstyle, or 95% of airs on a foil. It just looks whack. Personal opinion of course, but I generally aim to avoid lame and awkward in all aspects of life. As to developing a deeper level of skill..... meh. Your better off ascribing to the "never stop riding" school of thought, where if your still in contact with the board, your still actively driving for recovery. Leads to a far greater variety of foot positions, balance points, and orientations than one could ever plan for. In learning new things on a foil there are soooooo many half falls where having not given up on directing the board with your feet (no matter how bad or underwater its position). If you can direct it, and regain your orientation above the wing you can usually pop right back up onto the foil with a quick spin of the kite. Began on surfboards when falling on landings or in white water. One toe can lead to a ride away recovery where giving up too early means a loose board hazard for others and a drag back into the beach. Foiling with a low volume board has taken it to the next level. I often approach the board in the water feet first. Tipping the near rail at the tail with my back foot makes it easy to manipulate into launch position hands free while tensioning the lines for a quick and seamless take off. Looks about 100 times slicker than flying around ski stance.

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Re: Shoulders Forward?

Postby geopeck » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:24 pm

Hey Starsky, I wouldn't reply if I didn't think we aren't generally on the same page regarding fun vs showmanship, what drives long term sustainable stoke etc., so this is really just fine tuning but I like your style so I'll toss this out there.

The opportunities around strapless riding include getting to move your stance tiny bits or large steps to increase leverage, reduce fatigue, handle speed or chop, maybe to increase personal challenge. Moving your feet to opposite edges will increase mechanical advantage on the board. With a foil, maybe it's not so useful like it would be on a directional because you already have all the upwind travel you need, but you have to admit that when strapless toeside on a foil you don't have nearly the same stability and dig as heelside. So moving the the back toe to the edge, and moving the front heel to the other edge is a natural adjustment. Just a small variation from that moves you to ski stance.
It just looks whack.
To me, it's well inside the fun zone, not as a full time style but for sections of tacks, why not?
For any kind of dynamic carving, riding swell.... sideways stance is where its at!
You bet. That's when you move your feet back.
I often approach the board in the water feet first. Tipping the near rail at the tail with my back foot makes it easy to manipulate into launch position hands free while tensioning the lines for a quick and seamless take off.
Slick as dog snot. Always a high point of my session when I'm hitting it.
Looks about 100 times slicker than flying around ski stance.
No one watching understands or cares. Also you're so far offshore with the foil they would need spotting glasses to see you. Also a guy just did a double dangle board grab right by the parking lot so you're basically invisible. You cover that ground all the time.

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Re: Shoulders Forward?

Postby jumptheshark » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:53 pm

Cheers,

I'm generally foiling for myself, though its lonely enough that the occasional spectator still has a bit of draw!

Im just squarely a onewheel kinda guy. Took a nano second to recognize that they had the right idea. No desire to even try a hoverboard or any of the other motorized wheels that have you forward facing. No desire to try a motorized skateboard either... Intuitively, a remote is just a non starter when the onewheel has such an elegant solution that is integral to the joy. Its just my gut identifying what feels like a good fit for me. I couldn't care less really if someone wants to foil in ski stance full time. I just giggle at how many kiters choose to do things that I personally find aesthetically grating. But hey, its a free world... well some of it. It's not like I have never foiled with my feet close together. Everyone should experiment and play around with the balance point and foot movement. There are lots of things that I can do that I simply choose not to.

Foiling is in its infancy and there are loads of "styles" yet to be explored. We all look to others for inspiration, but in the end what we end up looking like is pretty much of our own design. The hydrofoil video thread is kinda interesting. There are only a minority of clips that I can get any real enjoyment from. Narrow stance, even when really really advanced like Greg Drexler is not as attractive to me as a slightly wider stance. Where I can watch Greg catch and ride waves all day long, (the lines he draws are hypnotizing) the kite whirling and endless rotations are less compelling to me. Same can be said for some wide stance riders. Oyvind is clearly pretty skilled, but I can't get much inspiration there. Something about the frequency and character of the movement that just doesn't do it for me, where in truth, he's not far off what I strive to be doing, just a very different aesthetic. Peter Frank has a nice stance, and even when he's not doing much, I can enjoy watching because there is always an element of flow from one carve to the next. Straight lines like racing.... I can't watch but for the crashes and tangles! Nicolas has probably the strongest style in my opinion as it hits all the points Im going for minus some of the airs. Do I look like him when I ride..... likely not, but thats where Im going.

Other things I just can't really get behind. Rodeo airs with a surfboard. Its a gimmick that has already had too much air time. So lame compared to a straight up massive no hands strapless air. Anything that is not super high that has a bunch of dangle. Dangling for the sake of twirling your board. Airstyle, wake, surf, foil. Doesn't really matter, there are advanced riders in all fields that kill it, and there are those that clash with my eye. Have stopped looking to see what Toby will do next over that bit of sand in Brazil. He might well be the polar opposite to what I find aesthetically pleasing in kiting, but its not an airstyle thing. I can watch almost all of what Dimitry or Tom Hebert do quite happily.

When wake gets too technical, I tune out in favour of the simple more layed out and well timed riders.... Jason Slezak, Brandon Sheid, Shannon Best, Marc Jacobs and any other riders with mass have always been more compelling than the tiny guys who can fit three rotations into the same time and space.

Wave, its guys like Rebstock and Aldridge that prioritize wave and carve and power over the flippy stuff from other high end talents like Mitu or Airton.

Foil is still new, so there are only a few examples. There will be loads of talent emerging, but among them, there will always be those who truly manage the alchemy of timing, stance, position, power and move to hit all the serotonin buttons in my brain. I certainly know what Im working toward when I see it, and its a gut level understanding.

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Re: Shoulders Forward?

Postby jumptheshark » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:55 am

Oh yeah, your point.

When you step to the rail while foiling toeside to better crank upwind, its only a small shift to full ski stance..... so whats wrong with ski stance....Was it a question?

I don't think I ever step to the rail foiling. I only ever crank upwind heel side. Toeside, I'm more likely cruising on a broader angle or heading off the wind. I'll try it now that you bring it up just for fun tho.

Sideways stance, the lever of your foot does roll and stance width does pitch. Ski stance its opposite so you get a pretty pitch stable style. Meh.

To really carve on a foil especially repeatedly, you use a fair bit of yaw..... better in sideways stance.

I also really like to pump (a quintessential foil thing).

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Re: Shoulders Forward?

Postby Laughingman » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:51 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:12 pm
Foiling with a low volume board has taken it to the next level. I often approach the board in the water feet first. Tipping the near rail at the tail with my back foot makes it easy to manipulate into launch position hands free while tensioning the lines for a quick and seamless take off. Looks about 100 times slicker than flying around ski stance.
How low is low volume and how has it taken your riding to the next level? Can you still foil in ultra low winds like 7 - 8 knots with your low volume board?

and WTF....? Hands free launch...? I'd love to see how you do that.


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