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Wind and Kite Sizing

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Peter_Frank
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Wind and Kite Sizing

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:22 pm

Hi

I have known for a while which sizes I use in which average winds, both when on a waveboard, and a hydrofoil freestyle/freeride/waveriding, and what I rode and my friends ride windsurfing.

Have puzzled with the calculations, to get the physics to fit the real world - and reversed, it actually helps to know what to use when A LOT of wind, above the usual comfort zone maybe :naughty:

So these are my chosen sizes, taken everything into account, using bigger and bigger wings when wind close to 10 knots and below, and longer lines.
The important thing is, that in really low wind less than 7 knots, your apparent wind comes so much from the front, that the kitelift is mostly sideways, thus extremely inefficient and higher drag from the hydrofoil too when all vectors taken into account - and this is why we can not just use a 40m2 kite in almost no wind, as the power get "pinched" away from us so to speak :wink:


Anyways, these are my "sweet spot" sizes I choose in LEI units:

Image

For a race foilkite you can multiply approximately by 1.3 I would say, meaning an 11m2 race foilkite has equivalent power to a bit over a 14m2 LEI kite, because of its higher projected area and less drag and higher efficiency so a better lift angle in low wind.
Yes, they also have more depower so can be held in much more wind too, but thats beyond the point about the sweetspot for freeride/freestyle.

I am 77kg, but have added the equivalent simply scaled up, for 90kg.

Of course everybody will now say this is not correct (for them), but it fits the bill regarding physics and it fits me spot on, so to some extent you should be able to just offset up if you ride with more power, even if not heavier.
Or if upwind/downwind current you also offset a tad.
I ride the same kitesizes as similar weight wave/surfboard riders here, but many are heavier than 75kg so ride one size bigger than me.
On hydrofoils I ride relatively small compared to some, but it fits sweetspot for playing in the waves.
I have left TT sizing out - as we hardly see any on TT's nomore, at least never when out at wavespots, and not many or any riding waveboards and hydrofoils ride TT's.

For the windsurf sail sizes, it is taken into account you ride on a formula board when close to 10 knots, a smaller slalom/freestyle board when above, and a waveboard/wavesail when 18-20 knots and above.

Rant on, as I know most of you most likely will now, but hey - maybe a few can use it too ? :naughty:

Plummet, you asked me if I never jumped when riding on a waveboard ?
YES, it is my sweet spots, so I am fully powered going upwind fast, and jumping perfectly.

Most riders overestimate the wind, for different reasons - if they measure themeselves, they always mentally memorize the highest numbers they see on their meter.
And for standard weather stations positioned at the shoreline, f.ex at a yacht club, if wind is a bit onshore it accelerates over the buildings and coastline, or if sideshore it accelerates over the pier, so more wind than true average free flow wind.
Meters on wind power stations show too much usually, as too high up - but one will know how much they are off, after many years of course.
The opposite can also happen, that the wind gets slowed down when meeting the coast and high obstacles - so it goes both ways.
My point is, it is really difficult to measure the wind correctly, and most often we focus on the max winds we see eventhough not a correct average wind :roll:

Why have I gone through all this trouble setting the principles and physics and calculating this, correlated with real life sizing ?

Because I love and live for wind and planes/gliders and sailing/surf - so a basic part of my life since I was 10, and both interesting and in some instances valuable to know the ways everything interacts - so I can not help it, great to see it can be explained, eventhough you just most often KNOW which size to choose when standing on the beach, I know :rollgrin:

The most valuable benefit for me, is that if out on a waveboard with a given kitesize, and I want to go on a hydrofoil, or reverse, I know exactly what size to rig down/up to without any risk of choosing wrongly.
Or if out with others on a different type of board, could be windsurfers, I have an idea how much wind is far out on the break seeing which sizes they use (and you know how heavy they are, if you know almost everybody).
This can be impossible to know in many spots and pure luck whether you choose the right size or not, if the wind is sideshore and the break REALLY far away :wink:

8) Peter

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Re: Wind and Kite Sizing

Postby plummet » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:59 am

So a 6m is selected at 26 knots average wind on a waveboard with a wet weight of 90kg?

For me average wind is useless. In fact rigging based on average wind is dangerous!
What is the max gust of the day and can the kite you are rigging handle it? on the other side can that same kite handle the lulls of the day too? It big swell min lull is very important to not being swallowed up by a monster wave if a lull hits. None of this is evident if you only consider average wind. One needs to consider the wind range of the day and select the kite accordingly.

lets take 25 knots averaged wind for my mutant board for general riding, not wave specific,

If its gusting to past 35 knots ill use the 6m
sub 35 gusts 8m maybe 6 dependant on lulls. solid 25 +35 gusts, 6m, lulls to 20, 8m.
sub 28 gusts, most likely 8, maybe 10 dependant on lulls. lulls below 20 10m.
25 constant, 10m boostathon
25 with lulls down to 15 knots, 10m
25 with lulls to 10 knots. 13m.

IF i took the ideal 25 knot clean wind 10m kite out in 35+ knot gusts i would most likely be injured or worse.




lulls to 15 ill be on the

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Re: Wind and Kite Sizing

Postby juandesooka » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:52 am

At 18kt you are on a 5m? That's interesting. I don't think I could make that work but we'll see this summer.

I have noticed that my wind range for most comfortable foiling is where I can barely stay upwind on surfboard. If I can jump at all on Mako , then foil will be over powered....doable but uncomfortable.

With variable winter winds it seems the 3 board solution works....if wind dies for other boards then the foiling will be fun. Challenging lately to choose the right kite for a nicely powered session.

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Re: Wind and Kite Sizing

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:04 pm

Peter_Frank wrote: Image

Only partial credit for graphs, full credit for sharing your math, extra credit for incorporating five variables or more :advise:

Peter_Frank wrote: I have left TT sizing out - as we hardly see any on TT's nomore, at least never when out at wavespots :duel:

Just kidding :cheers:
Appreciate your efforts as it really is trial by experience, but then it is interesting to try and map those experiences to try and gain a wider perspective. I like how you fit hydrofoil kiting, windsurfing, and wave kiting all on the same chart. Indicates how much windsurfing and hydrofoil kiting overlap and how much more gear/range you may need for light wind conditions.

Peter_Frank wrote: Have puzzled with the calculations, to get the physics to fit the real world - and reversed, it actually helps to know what to use when A LOT of wind, above the usual comfort zone maybe :naughty:
I too tried to use physics calculations to make sense of things...

Sheet Out
Image
Sheet In
Image
Reference1
Peter_Frank wrote: Have puzzled with the calculations, to get the physics to fit the real world - and reversed, it actually helps to know what to use when A LOT of wind, above the usual comfort zone maybe :naughty:
And to map out, what to expect from A LOT of wind/waves.

Image
Reference2

But, maybe these graphing efforts hold more meaning to the person trying to map out their own experiences than it does to others with different experiences :brainshit:

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Re: Wind and Kite Sizing

Postby edt » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:42 pm

Peter can you possibly fix the coordinates for those charts so that they create straight lines? I think but I'm not sure if you just use sqrt(wind speed) you'll get straight lines. It would make it a lot easier for me to figure out where I am on the line.

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Re: Wind and Kite Sizing

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:36 pm

edt wrote:Peter can you possibly fix the coordinates for those charts so that they create straight lines? I think but I'm not sure if you just use sqrt(wind speed) you'll get straight lines. It would make it a lot easier for me to figure out where I am on the line.
To edt and PugetSoundKiter :

Nope, as it is not straight lines - meaning not squared apparent wind :roll:

This was the challenge, for TT and Waveboards in higher winds you could almost just use the easy assumption that it is apparent wind squared and thats it - a very rough estimation that is not far off at higher windspeeds, we know that :wink:

But for a hydrofoil, when you ride with the double speed of the wind in marginal wind, you have, say halfwind, an angle of apparent wind that is more than 63 degrees off "max" (90 degrees) if you had an ideal wing (kite), thus you lose 44% of the power because of this bad angle (wind coming from the front), and you need to heel the board over to compensate for the added sideways pull thus you get more drag too.
You also have to add the different angles, as you dont always ride perpendicular to the wind, so also taken into consideration - although this is not a huge factor compared.

Based on this "pinching" effect as I call it, you would have to use WAY bigger kites in marginal wind, than in real life, so does not fit anything if only taking these parameters.
How come we can ride in marginal winds then ?
This is because we use relatively bigger kites so we also get "lighter" (as opposed to windsurfers) - thus we dont need the same amount of lift from the foil, and a key parameter in order to hit the nail on the head :naughty:

Wing size is also important, BUT, a bigger wing will let you start earlier yes, but also ride slower and have more drag, so it makes it even more complicated and does not even out, but still pulls in opposite directions.
Also, because of the pinching, some of the lift is used to widthstand the sideways pull - so more drag an lower topspeed, also important to take into the equations.

So no, it is not even close to a straight line, even if you used a "square" function as unit (and not exponential or anything either).

In high winds, all of the kite curves are closer to the simple apparent wind square function of course, not quite but getting closer - as expected.

But at really low winds it is soooo tricky because of all of above - so took a while till I got it right, well at least so close that it fits my experiences spot on :thumb:

Windsurf sail sizes are purely experiences from myself and others, as in higher winds and more waves, the bottom of the sail are in the surface "low" wind (the "wind boundary layer") so you dont scale down as much as a kite in higher winds particularly, even for being powered the very same.
Thus not possible to calculate as cleanly - well, at least almost impossible, difficult and depending on other factors than solely windspeed, but also the very nature of the wind boundary layer.


PugetSoundKiter, you are going for explaining in absolute values - it requires some "givens" and to an extent more simplified starting points, but not easy.

I dont care that much about the absolutes, but about the relative dependecies from end to end - which I find useful, and you can always calibrate the absolutes with experiences :D
Doing some empirical calculations also of course, but as said - it worked out quite well.

One could also just draw the curve based solely on own experiences and sizing, and leave out the upper and lower ends :rollgrin:

8) Peter

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Re: Wind and Kite Sizing

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:09 am

Peter_Frank wrote: I dont care that much about the absolutes, but about the relative dependecies from end to end - which I find useful, and you can always calibrate the absolutes with experiences
Yes, qualitatively I’ve found some kite/board combinations good, some ok, and some bad :cheers:
KitesBoardsWavesWinds.jpg


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