Strutless 12 or 15?

[Peter_Frank]

If you want a Voyager for marginal winds, go 15 m2 not in doubt for 90 kg

But this was not your question - so definitely go for a 12, when you want it to be comfy down to an 8 m2 and have a wide range

For my 77 kg I would choose the 12 (have ridden both) as I can start just as early I think, but way "faster" and more fun.
Both sizes make sense though, for 90 kg, but as you are willing to give a bit on the low end size and gain range and fun, go 12 !

PF

[kas911]

Thanks again. I am really into the lightwind stuff though. Guess the 15 would the pick by heart, and the 12 if i let the brain decide

How about this for an argument for the 12: If you're out foiling in 8 knots on the 15 and the wind drops a little the kite is most likely to crash and NOT relaunch... If the wind drops on the 12 so you cant foil, it will not crash and you can still "limp" in Makes a little sence doesn't it?

[Peter_Frank]

Thanks again. I am really into the lightwind stuff though. Guess the 15 would the pick by heart, and the 12 if i let the brain decide

How about this for an argument for the 12: If you're out foiling in 8 knots on the 15 and the wind drops a little the kite is most likely to crash and NOT relaunch... If the wind drops on the 12 so you cant foil, it will not crash and you can still "limp" in Makes a little sence doesn't it?

Not really, I would say...

You can not relaunch no matter what, if marginal winds and you go down (but you can drift ashore no problem and relaunch).

The 15 will NOT drop when out in 8 knots, it hangs extremely good - maybe a bit better than the 12 if the same wind.
But of course, if out with the 12 in a tad more wind, you might be able to limp ashore a tad before it is too late, like you say yes.

With my weight, I found the low limit where the 15 could still hang, but not sufficient wind to start and foil, and I could drag ashore without a wet kite.
But it is on the verge yes, where you can easily (as I did another time) drop it in this wind yes.

That is the beaty with these "light" foil specific kites - they can still hang in the air when too little wind to foil, so you can loop yourself ashore (or stay out and try and try waiting for a gust), instead of having to drift/swim

PF

[KYLakeKiter]

Last year when I started foiling (yes, foil newb), I was just using my 13m as my lightwind kite. It worked great when there was steady wind, but as with most lightwind days, the lulls were dropping my kite in the drink, and then it was just luck of the draw as to whether I could get enough of a puff to relaunch it. After a few long swims, I decided to try foiling with my 17m and my relaunch success (as well as lack of need to relaunch) improved by whatever math percentage the extra 3 meters provides (duh).

Of course, I am definitely getting overpowered (for foil riding at my level) much earlier, but that has been an easier problem to deal with than a kite on the water farther from shore than I knew I should have gone. I am seriously considering getting a 15m ish for foiling, and intend to do some serious same day comparisons between the 15 and 17. I am hoping the 15m relaunch and lull hang will be good enough that it can be my new biggest kite for the lowest wind days but still give me a little more top end room to work with.

[Peter_Frank]

Hmmm, would just point out one thing that many "newer" kiters might not know...

The bigger the kite, the more difficult it is to keep them "flying" usually

Yes, some of the biggest kites are designed lighter than the smaller ones, but normal kites that got only a slighter lower weight/surface ratio, are a lot more difficult to handle and keep in the air, and usually not to relaunch either because of the pure wetted surface and weight

So IMO a 15 would be easier to fly than a 17 when marginal, usually.

One can go out on an almost calm day and fly a 7 m2 kite on land, where the bigger ones can not really fly or be handled - just the way it is

PF

[plummet]

I'd like to fly one of these strutless kites to see how they compare to the race foils in light wind.

My 12m V1 chrono hangs easily from 8 knots. 6 knots and it needs to be flown to stay in the air.

On a 6-8 knot day the hardest thing to do is get out deep enough to start without being pushed back by the waves and sending the kite in the drink. Do the old back stall wang straight through the powerzone and your up on the foil in one sweep 6-8 knots.

But i'm not good enough yet to do a foiling jybe. So every time I change directly in 6-8 knots its a dice roll as to whether i can keep the kite in the air. When i get foiling jybes sorted then i might tackle more sub 8 knot sessions.

[KYLakeKiter]

Hmmm, would just point out one thing that many "newer" kiters might not know...

The bigger the kite, the more difficult it is to keep them "flying" usually

Yes, some of the biggest kites are designed lighter than the smaller ones, but normal kites that got only a slighter lower weight/surface ratio, are a lot more difficult to handle and keep in the air, and usually not to relaunch either because of the pure wetted surface and weight

So IMO a 15 would be easier to fly than a 17 when marginal, usually.

One can go out on an almost calm day and fly a 7 m2 kite on land, where the bigger ones can not really fly or be handled - just the way it is

PF

OK Peter, I normally agree with what you say, and I do respect your depth of knowledge and experience on most kiting and foiling topics, but in this case, not so much.

My 17m flies in less wind than my 13m - just the way it is. If that were not the case, I would have ditched the big kite long ago. I do agree that at some point, kite size reaches a point of diminishing returns, but based on the lightwind kites produced, that is somewhere between 16 to 18m. My point in considering the 15m is that kite designs may have progressed to the point that a newer 15m may have improved low end qualities. I will let you know how my comparison goes.

Although I am "newer" to kiting than you, I have been at this for a little while, and I spend a good bit of my time in light wind. While I may be able to fly my 7.5m on land in 8kts of wind, if I took it on the water, it would not pull me, and would never relaunch. My 17m will absolutely relaunch and pull me in 8kts.

[Brian H]

I think it's the 5/6 kt lulls that you get when you are out foiling that a 12m strut less or a foil kite will still stay in the air that's what gets you home without a swim.

[Peter_Frank]

I think it's the 5/6 kt lulls that you get when you are out foiling that a 12m strut less or a foil kite will still stay in the air that's what gets you home without a swim.

Exactly, my point was that eventhough smaller kites are useless because they can not pull you - they can be held flying in huge lulls better than a bigger size

Not necessarily "hang" better - but can be held flying better to avoid a swim.

So a 12 m2 (and 13/14/15) might be easier to "save" than a 17 m2, most often, and have the same peak power to get going on a foil eventhough slightly less "raw" grunt yes (but way more range of course which was the OP desire).

Always the tradeoff

The 7 m2 illustration was of course just the principle - as you hear so many saying about a +20 m2 kite "Wow it must fly in almost NO wind" - and nothing is further from the truth as the smaller kites are way easier to fly and handle in even less wind, eventhough no pull on the water
It was just the kite basics, as for some reason many got the wrong idea that bigger kites can fly in way less wind, and it is just the opposite in most cases

I know you know that KYLakeKiter, but not everyone does, in fact most "new" dont... That was my point here.

PF

[Wielandt]

Hi guys

I own and fly a Storm Voyager 15 and a Gong 12 both strutless. There is no doubt that the Storm Voyager get you foiling in less wind than the Gong !!! Further more the Storm Voyager 15 is much easier to relaunch than the Gong even it's bigger. That was a big surprise to me. Proberly due to the wing cut.

I'm no expert and not much interested in all the technical stuff. But I use the kites a'lot and thats my experience.