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Foil SUP

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ronnie
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Re: Foil SUP

Postby ronnie » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:09 pm

gmb13 wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:04 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:18 pm
Blackrat wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:21 pm
A kitefoil isn't going to work in the sup , the front blade isn't big enough

Sure about that ?
Average sizing maybe (whatever that is ha haa) too small yes.

But some standard kitefoil wings are almost 900 cm2, THAT is big :thumb:

8) PF

It is not just the general size that makes a good SUP Foil. If you look at the go foil kai, it has a profile thickness of around 36mm on the front wing. The profile is also hyper stable compared to a Large Kitefoil wing profile. It tops out at around 14 knots, which is what you want. I have been messing around sup foiling for some time with large kitefoil and windfoil wings for some time now, and that was pretty horrible and dangerous too.

Also the mast length is key. 60cm is the magic length. If you try your 90cm mast, your will have a very hard time.

What also makes a good SUP Foil is not having sharp edges. The Go Foil, Naish Malolo and Takuma are safe as they have really round noses on all profiles. A windfoil/Kitefoil will injure you quite badly. Some guy went out on the F-One Wind/SUP Foil here the other day and ended in the hospital looking like the Joker. It has a sharp nose protruding past the front wing and was nice shap winglets on the back wing. To be fair, the guy ignored the advice of maybe learning to foil behind a boat first.

Basically what I am saying is, if you are going to go SUP Foiling, you should have a proper SUP Foil that is safe. And also maybe take that setup out on a kite first so you can figure out where the balance points are before you head into waves.

--
Gunnar
Hi Gunnar,
You showed a photo of the Kai foil mounted in a base on tracks. Is that a successful method?

Icharus
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Re: Foil SUP

Postby Icharus » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:09 pm

Thanks guys I knew I would get some good info. Do ew know if any of the mainstream guys are making SUP/surf wings. If lift is everything then you would think the likes of Zeeko would do a sup wing to work with the standard mast. I have a Sroka that is short enough - sounds like I just need a high lift low speed wing to fit on it? isn't the LF wing pretty big and slow - I tried one once - it was like towing a bucket!

cheers

ronnie
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Re: Foil SUP

Postby ronnie » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:14 pm

Icharus wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:09 pm
Thanks guys I knew I would get some good info. Do ew know if any of the mainstream guys are making SUP/surf wings. If lift is everything then you would think the likes of Zeeko would do a sup wing to work with the standard mast. I have a Sroka that is short enough - sounds like I just need a high lift low speed wing to fit on it? isn't the LF wing pretty big and slow - I tried one once - it was like towing a bucket!

cheers
@ 2:15 into this video, is a short section of Nicolas from Zeeko trying out a foil for SUP.
https://en-gb.facebook.com/marc.langloi ... 381940520/
He has written enthusiastically about the SUP foiling sensations.

Alex Aguera chose the Starboard Hyper Nut 7' 4" SUP to supply as the board for his Kai Foil.
This is a video of Alex kitefoiling a Hyper Nut with a GoFoil SUP foil (the blue board). The smaller white board has the GoFoil Race kitefoil fitted.

jonysan
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Re: Foil SUP

Postby jonysan » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:55 pm

Patrice at GONG has foils for SUP, Surf , and Kite, look for Videos, and Photos, at either GONGSUP, GONGFOIL, GONGKITE, noseriding a longboard, then getting it onto foil !!

<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/208539179" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe>

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Foil SUP

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:19 pm

Yes, of course area and total lift is not the same Gunnar.

But you can not design a "stable" wing with more lift - it is physics and not possible.

If you have more camber and a bigger wing, it IS less stable (more pitching moment from the wing), and will require a bigger or more aoa rear wing.

Of course you can make cambered wings stable if you use an "S" profile, or a swept wing with washout.
But doing so, you also decrease lift and add drag - so there is no "getting something for nothing" here.

So I can deduct (havent tried one), that a SUP foil needs a really lifting wing (no surprise), but also much more stabilisation than a similar sized kitefoil ? :wink:

Somewhat like the windfoils would be my guess - they have more lifting wings but also bigger stabilisers :naughty:

8) PF

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gmb13
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Re: Foil SUP

Postby gmb13 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:27 am

ronnie wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:09 pm
gmb13 wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:04 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:18 pm



Sure about that ?
Average sizing maybe (whatever that is ha haa) too small yes.

But some standard kitefoil wings are almost 900 cm2, THAT is big :thumb:

8) PF

It is not just the general size that makes a good SUP Foil. If you look at the go foil kai, it has a profile thickness of around 36mm on the front wing. The profile is also hyper stable compared to a Large Kitefoil wing profile. It tops out at around 14 knots, which is what you want. I have been messing around sup foiling for some time with large kitefoil and windfoil wings for some time now, and that was pretty horrible and dangerous too.

Also the mast length is key. 60cm is the magic length. If you try your 90cm mast, your will have a very hard time.

What also makes a good SUP Foil is not having sharp edges. The Go Foil, Naish Malolo and Takuma are safe as they have really round noses on all profiles. A windfoil/Kitefoil will injure you quite badly. Some guy went out on the F-One Wind/SUP Foil here the other day and ended in the hospital looking like the Joker. It has a sharp nose protruding past the front wing and was nice shap winglets on the back wing. To be fair, the guy ignored the advice of maybe learning to foil behind a boat first.

Basically what I am saying is, if you are going to go SUP Foiling, you should have a proper SUP Foil that is safe. And also maybe take that setup out on a kite first so you can figure out where the balance points are before you head into waves.

--
Gunnar
Hi Gunnar,
You showed a photo of the Kai foil mounted in a base on tracks. Is that a successful method?
Hi dude,

Yes. I use the aluminium Groove Adapter and it works great.

--
Gunnar

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gmb13
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Re: Foil SUP

Postby gmb13 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:44 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:19 pm
Yes, of course area and total lift is not the same Gunnar.

But you can not design a "stable" wing with more lift - it is physics and not possible.

If you have more camber and a bigger wing, it IS less stable (more pitching moment from the wing), and will require a bigger or more aoa rear wing.

Of course you can make cambered wings stable if you use an "S" profile, or a swept wing with washout.
But doing so, you also decrease lift and add drag - so there is no "getting something for nothing" here.

So I can deduct (havent tried one), that a SUP foil needs a really lifting wing (no surprise), but also much more stabilisation than a similar sized kitefoil ? :wink:

Somewhat like the windfoils would be my guess - they have more lifting wings but also bigger stabilisers :naughty:

8) PF
What is needed for easy SUP foiling is a wing that limits speed, is safe and pops up at ridiculous low speeds. The wing needs to lift a low speeds so a low AR wing is perfect for this. The stab on the Go Foil is actually super small for the size of front wing. We are talking less than 20% area compared to the front wing.

I do not recommend that anyone try to SUPfoil with Windfoil or Kitefoil wings, and if you absolutely have to, then only in super small waves. Those sharp edges and the speeds they can reach, can be deadly in anything more than hip high.


--
Gunnar

ronnie
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Re: Foil SUP

Postby ronnie » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:14 pm

gmb13 wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:27 am
ronnie wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:09 pm

Hi Gunnar,
You showed a photo of the Kai foil mounted in a base on tracks. Is that a successful method?
Hi dude,

Yes. I use the aluminium Groove Adapter and it works great.
--
Gunnar
Thanks Gunnar! Who makes the Groove Adapter? The only similar adapter I can find is the Alpine one.

I've seen a couple of different boards that have been windsupped with the Kai foil, and I think that board of yours was maybe a windsup board too? Will you be trying it as a windfoil with the Kai foil?

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Foil SUP

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:32 pm

Hmmm, a high AR wing can start earlier than a low AR wing, simply more total lift (if area and profile is the same, but most often they are not) :thumb:

But yes Gunnar, the low AR has the other advantages - not as risky to get "stabbed" on, and it has WAY better stall characteristics, besides having the aoa decreased by the tip by the vortex so more stable if swept (on cost of loss of lift and more drag), a slow and soft stall with huge drag which most likely suits SUP foiling better indeed.

Maybe it is individual how big the rear stabiliser is, whether you want a lively SUP or an easy stable one ?

8) PF

Icharus
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Re: Foil SUP

Postby Icharus » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:27 pm

jonysan wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:55 pm
Patrice at GONG has foils for SUP, Surf , and Kite, look for Videos, and Photos, at either GONGSUP, GONGFOIL, GONGKITE, noseriding a longboard, then getting it onto foil !!

<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/208539179" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe>
that is fricken awesome! - big old front wing right enough.


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