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Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

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james
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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby james » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:36 am

alexrider wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:51 am
As if the store didn't know the risk he's taking when demoing. He's never guaranteed the customer ends up buying another brand, or a "cheap" copy. It's the name of the game, and whining doesn't help sales. The surest way to not sell is not to demo at all. Nothing prevents the shop to offer cheap copies as well, so the punter has the choice. Giving the customer the possibility to compare is good for Takuma, if their prices are justified by a corresponding quality.
Seems you never did business, and never bought Chinese home appliances, James. :naughty:
james wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:54 pm
You got a link to the store you demoed the Takuma from?

Keen to try one out then buy a cheap copy

And then wonder why stores don't carry demogear.
There are so many issues with what you wrote...

Not demoing is the surest way not to sell gear, ok

In this example the shop stocked the gear demoed it and not only did they not sell it the guy bought a copy of what they demoed...

Whining doesn't help sales you are correct. But then neither does sitting by and doing nothing and watching people buy direct copies of what you sell.

Nothing stops the shop selling the cheap copy?

Erm yes, the entire time a consumer can purchase direct there is no need to buy the same thing from a store.

Look at the struggle for transition that Best had from direct sell then into retail.... worked out real well for them.

The store needs margin to pay its staff rates etc so there will be a price differential. We are talking about buying a copy product because it's cheap, you will always buy the cheapest option at that end of the market.

Yep worked in retail for over 20 years thanks.

Do I buy Chinese copies of household or personal electronics? No

Have I bought products that are manufactured in China on behalf of a company that based its production there? Of course.

If you can't see the difference then your more stupid than I gave you credit for.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby slowboat » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:15 pm

Jzh_perth wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:26 am


I don't know the answer to this dilemma - it's not unique to just our sport in any case. I guess you need to accept with a cheaper option you forgoe any warranty and support if you break or damage it. That is a lot of value and shouldn't be underestimated.
I agree strongly with this. "James", this is how free markets work and should work. The buyer should be free to decide how he wants to spend his money. In this case, he acknowledges he is taking some risk in exchange for the discount. That is his choice. Nothing wrong with that.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby TomW » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:15 pm

I suppose there's books written about this.
Yes, the Chinese copy drives down, or at least holds down, prices of original products of similar type, encouraging companies to be more efficient.
Yes it pushes companies to innovate.
Yes it gives people choice.
So that's good.
But remember, some of these copies are the result of someone stealing Intellectual Property, and there's people working in China for really low wages that don't permit a decent life, and the working conditions are not healthy for the people working there or the environment.
I'm speaking from first hand experience and observations after 38 years in consumer electronics and design.
It's your choice, but buying the cheap rip-off in my book is about concentrated benefits and distributed costs. The benefits are yours, at the cost to others ( that are significant, but you don't see or feel them).

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby Jzh_perth » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:21 am

TomW wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:15 pm
I supp
It's your choice, but buying the cheap rip-off in my book is about concentrated benefits and distributed costs. The benefits are yours, at the cost to others ( that are significant, but you don't see or feel them).
I think this is a very intelligent comment and sage piece of advice.

Mind you...

I bet the worker doesn't get paid anymore whether he's making a red Takuma or a black knockoff. My assumption is it's the same worker/ factory making both - I can't imagine there is enough margin to justify a 3rd party making copies of molds and machining all the parts as a separate process. There was an earlier comment about the design being open source or something to that effect. Not protected under patent, nor is it being represented as a Takuma foil (ie a fake). It's just a different product, one without warranty and considerable purchase risk (sending money to mainland china with no buyer protection.)

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby longwhitecloud » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:45 am

To me, hydrofoil is a very niche product of a very niche sport. Also a difficult to learn discipline of a difficult to learn sport (to the average punter) It would be incredibly difficult to make a successful business of it long term.

Something new comes along, many people think what a great idea - i'll start a foil company and then before you know as seen many times before in these kinds of sports (eg SUP - well that is all over!) .. For good or bad, reality is that being easily couriered, amazon and aliexpress are some of the first ports of call for consumers today, price matters, many of the hydrofoil startup companies will end up slowly failing.

I think there will be an adjustment in price for branded hydrofoils, the very top end brand may just about stay alive and many riders will choose to buy chinese non branded foils and wings, masts, fuselages and separate items.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby spork » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:06 am

TomW wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:15 pm
But remember, some of these copies are the result of someone stealing Intellectual Property...
You're undoubtedly right. But I always get a little tweaked when people throw around terms like "rip-off" and "intellectual property" when they don't apply. If these companies violate patent or copyright, then they're ripping off the rights holders. Otherwise they're free to compete in the market place. And of course the customer is free to conclude that they're smarmy and not support them if they wish. But you can't steal a design from someone that hasn't protected it.
..and there's people working in China for really low wages that don't permit a decent life, and the working conditions are not healthy for the people working there or the environment.
Also true. But this is a tricky one for me. If they're paying their employees shit, and treating them like shit, are we helping in any way by not giving them our business? I always kind of assumed that these are the growing pains in developing countries. Hopefully their economy grows, competition develops, and ultimately the workers demand better pay and better conditions - until all the manufacturing moves to the next developing country and they start bitching about people buying cheap stuff from overseas. It's the circle of life.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby Rufusz » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:28 am

I think these are great for first HF. If you get hooked you will buy a proper HF later anyway.

I guess it won't effect the kite industry that much since all brands claim they produce unique state of the art products so surely these knock offs are inferior in every way, right? ;)

The road and mtb market is way bigger than the HF and chinese carbon frames are selling around €300 on aliexpress, while bike brands selling them €1000+.
Still I rarely see any chinese frames on the trails/roads despite the costumers in my country being price sensitive.

Someone mentioned the lack of buyers protection when buying from China. It's no longer an issue with alipay in fact it works in favour of the buyer more than paypal. (The customer is right by default)

If I was about to foil now I would consider to buy one of these knock offs :)

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby longwhitecloud » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:07 am

i think with kites and mountain bike frames -mechanical failure due to poor design /quality has far bigger consequences for the user. A hydrofoil - not quite so much.

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby Rufusz » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:18 pm

Exactly. Forces on a mtb are a lot more than on HF, not to mention comparing a faceplant on water vs on a rocky trail ;)

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Re: Chinese KB Hydrofoil : 300 USD + shipment

Postby francis luengo » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:33 pm

Has anyone recived the JNJ HF yet?


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