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Tacking advice for a newb

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Jzh_perth
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Re: Tacking advice for a newb

Postby Jzh_perth » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:23 am

Mossy 757 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:18 pm
Duck tack you kick the nose downwind to spin the board 180*, with a roll tack you ride through the turn facing forward while switching feet (or not, it's still a roll tack if you ride out toeside)
Nah c'mon Mossy, you can't claim an upwind 180 as a roll tack. For it to be a roll tack there has to be a foot switch. I wouldn't claim it unless it was fully foiling either. It's a mistake otherwise.

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Mitaka
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Re: Tacking advice for a newb

Postby Mitaka » Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:06 am

Although duck tack and roll tack are technically the same manoeuvre - carving the board 180° upwind and turning the body facing the nose, the foot work and the "movement" of the board are different. Using duck tack for foils or roll tack for surfboards sounds weird to me. Tacks on surfboard and foilboard are also completed differently and beside that when doing the manoeuvre on foil it is good to specify if it is done on the surface or in the air. That is why I think that it is best to use the following terms:
Duck tack for surfboards.
Roll tack for foils (surface or air, but usually we assume that it is done in the air).
Tack for surfboards.
Surface tack or air tack for foils.

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Re: Tacking advice for a newb

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:09 am

I can not see any difference in the general principles whether the duck tack is on a surfboard, or a hydrofoil, strapped or strapless - exactly the same movement IMO :naughty:

More than 4 years ago when starting hydrofoiling, this tack was seen more and more.
I am not good at these things compared to many experts no, but great to do on surfboards too, and a good way to learn as when you are waveriding you need to tack many times back upwind after having gone DTL, so here you can practice "for free" so to speak :rollgrin:

Summer 2013 when I learned these, wind comes from the "top" of your screen:



8) PF

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Re: Tacking advice for a newb

Postby gmb13 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:25 am

Duck Tack and Roll Tack are the same thing. Some guys call it a duck tack as it is what they took over from Windsurfing. The rest call it a roll tack.

For the most part the roll tack on a surfboard is exactly the same as for a foilboard, however as your board stays on the water you can cheat and do it more slowly, and also without the kite in a perfect position etc. A lot of people thing it's different, but essentially that is because they have developed bad habits when learning the tack on the surfboard the wrong way.

Watch the tutorials on the Foiling tack and try to do everything the same on the surfboard. You should be planing through the tack if you get it right.

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Re: Tacking advice for a newb

Postby Mossy 757 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:48 pm

Jzh_perth wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:23 am
Mossy 757 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:18 pm
Duck tack you kick the nose downwind to spin the board 180*, with a roll tack you ride through the turn facing forward while switching feet (or not, it's still a roll tack if you ride out toeside)
Nah c'mon Mossy, you can't claim an upwind 180 as a roll tack. For it to be a roll tack there has to be a foot switch. I wouldn't claim it unless it was fully foiling either. It's a mistake otherwise.
A roll tack is a direction/sail change that utilizes kinetic movement to pump the sail by "rolling" as you come out on the new heading to create pressure on your propulsion sources (kite/sail/centerboard/foil/rudder) that generates apparent wind and therefore lift (speed). On a foil, it'd be damned near impossible NOT to use some roll for power as you did the maneuver, whereas in a dingy you have to use crew coordination and well-timed healing to get that same pump on the exit.

I'm not meaning to overcomplicate anything, but a roll tack is exactly what it sounds like, it's a tack where you roll to pump your keel/centerboard/fin(s)/foil(s)/daggerboard/rudder as you exit. Whether you switch feet or not has nothing to do with the fact that a 180 direction change where the direction of your sail/kite and your right of way relative to other craft also changes, while also utilizing a kinetic pump for speed is called a roll tack.

It's equally true whether your board touches down or not, just like it's true in a dingy where the hull never leaves the water.

Upwind 180 on the foil without foot switch = roll tack
Foiling tack with foot change facing upwind = roll tack
Tack with foot change where you touch down but still use a solid kinetic pump upwind to tension front lines and ride away with power = roll tack
Tack without foot change where everything goes wrong and you look like a total kook except for the last second where you pull of a nice clean pump as you settle into the new heading = roll tack

I think you and I would agree that kiting has a lot of specific vocabulary that builds on sailing, my point is just that "roll tack" denotes a kinetic component that comes from weight balance and pumping, as opposed to a non-roll tack like you learn in sailing school where you just sit there and let the boat/boom turn around you without using weight shift for your advantage.

This video is one of the best examples of a kinetic tack you'll find on Youtube:

phpBB [video]

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Re: Tacking advice for a newb

Postby MattyM » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:06 pm

cglazier wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:00 pm
Exactly.
In racing the roll tack (facing the front of the board) is always used because it provides better upwind progress during the maneuver. Notice that you come out of the roll tack with a twist in your lines and then need to unspin your bar.
When learning don't even think about trying to stay up on the foil, just doing it on the surface is challenging enough.
Here is a roll tack.
:wink:
CG

1980315_871771709501904_1031929649019760819_o (2016_02_18 18_21_59 UTC).jpg
Fantastic photo!

Jzh_perth
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Re: Tacking advice for a newb

Postby Jzh_perth » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:18 pm

I agree Mossy with what you describe. I'm thinking there might also be some "local" customs that come into play aswell. For example, in Australia, kite loops initiated with the front hand aren't kite loops but downloops. To own a kiteloop (or especially a megaloop), it needs to be performed with the back hand and kite rotating up thru the power zone, ideally below the height of the rider. Down loops are for landing and starting in light winds - guys here won't say they can loop unless they are doing it KOTA style.

I don't feel comfortable saying I can roll tack like Nico Parlier or Ollie Bridge just because I can whip out a sneaky upwind 180 and ride off toeside aka Greg Drexler style. To me they are quite different things.


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