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Production carbon mast composition

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BWD
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Re: Production carbon mast composition

Postby BWD » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:56 pm

but at 1.15g/cm^3, it's barely heavier than epoxy, versus ~2g.cm^3 fiberglass, ~1.75 for carbon, etc.
If you really needed parts to hold together, you could infuse several layers in the middle, weight penalty would be minimal. Several layers would also give cut resistance.
Probably not a priority, compared to making masts that don't break in the first place!!
just an idea, maybe not a bad idea one to add to the recipe for a DIY mast.

Blackrat
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Re: Production carbon mast composition

Postby Blackrat » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:03 pm

Twist sheared the leading edge of the mast .... That's what you describe as the foil feeling wierd .. With each side now being separate from each other , the mast has no strength and is easily snapped.

Would be interesting to know how thick is the skin ?
Can you not see biaxial carbon that has been sheared , it would be a 45-45 degree fabric that goes from the trailing edge of one side of the mast across the leading edge and back to the trailing edge of the other side of the mast , in effect joining both halves?

Europ2
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Re: Production carbon mast composition

Postby Europ2 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:12 pm

We haven't seen mast breaking since .... 2008 have we ? :o

This "C" mast was filled with glue for glue guns,
broken-leg.gif
broken-leg.gif (27.51 KiB) Viewed 554 times
Production for the masses: at that time, the Eppler 837 airfoil section was ... unknown :)
So many improvements in just a few years ...
split-leg.gif
split-leg.gif (28.44 KiB) Viewed 546 times

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Jimmy Mazzanti
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Re: Production carbon mast composition

Postby Jimmy Mazzanti » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:58 am

cwood wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:38 pm
Are all production carbon masts foam centered?

I broke my Moses Vorace mast yesterday and got to see the construction...clearly two halves bonded with a thin white foam core. I believe the engineering of carbon is all about the skin and not a core...but wondered if some are solid layers of carbon? I would think layup would be difficult to do solid and heavy....would it be stronger?

Ciao Cwood,
thank you for riding Moses


you the same "Fogmeister" in the German forum?
I am here only cause our German distributor told me somebody posted on their forum
easy to spot since we had WAY less the 1% warranty



Anyway I already replied to our Canadian distributor
you can ask him to show u my reply ;)


ps... manta

com'on we know that is not a question of cost :bye:
but tech choice


cheers All

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Horst Sergio
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Re: Production carbon mast composition

Postby Horst Sergio » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:47 am

Jimmy Mazzanti wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:58 am
...
ps... manta
com'on we know that is not a question of cost :bye:
but tech choice...
Also my words.
For sure costs are also one point of choice, but foam within strut need not to be primarily a cost choice but a choice of technology: Do you want to build maximum efficient racefoil and don't care for weight, go without core, or do you prefer maybe more balanced foils with still good performance but significantly lighter like moses, so use a core.

And cracks I have seen live and on pictures from really every single brand, and also pre manta (old zeeko carbon foils) have used foam in their fuselage (which was not bad) but also broke as also the heavy levitaz foils and all other do...
On the end a foil that never crack is just oversized. In the best case most cracks are produced by team riders which is part of their job for sure.

For customers it is more important to get a quick and easy respons and in the best case exchange of cracks. The worse way is always to post a crack first in all forums and then ask for rekla ...

Forum for me is just a place to discuss stability in general and if it looks like there is a serial issue and or no reaction from customer service.

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foam-n-fibre
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Re: Production carbon mast composition

Postby foam-n-fibre » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:07 pm

The thing that really surprises me is that this looks like EPS foam (white bead styrofoam). Yes, I know it is used in some kiteboards and surfboards, and almost all SUPs and windsurfers, but that foam has terrible structural properties. If bonding the 2 halves together they may as well just make it hollow. If they used a much stiffer stronger foam like corecell I expect that it would still be in one piece. The difference in different foam weights is minimal when so little foam is used (but does matter on big boards).

I can't tell from the photos, how thick do you think the carbon skin is on each side? Or, how thick is the foam core (6mm?) and how thick is the total foil thickness?

Peter

Edit: Having said that above, maybe it IS ok to make it hollow and the light foam just keeps it from filling with resin in the bonding phase and keeps water out. Clearly they don't break all the time.... Still, not what I would have expected to see.

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Re: Production carbon mast composition

Postby fogmeister » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:32 pm

nope....cwood is not fogmeister

I understand the alpinefoil racemast is full carbon as well.

cheers

fogmeister
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Re: Production carbon mast composition

Postby fogmeister » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:48 pm

moses immediatly stood behind their product to replace cwoods mast.....

its okay to post this stuff on forums.......can only help development......

cwood
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Re: Production carbon mast composition

Postby cwood » Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:50 pm

Jimmy Mazzanti wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:58 am
cwood wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:38 pm
Are all production carbon masts foam centered?

I broke my Moses Vorace mast yesterday and got to see the construction...clearly two halves bonded with a thin white foam core. I believe the engineering of carbon is all about the skin and not a core...but wondered if some are solid layers of carbon? I would think layup would be difficult to do solid and heavy....would it be stronger?

Ciao Cwood,
thank you for riding Moses


you the same "Fogmeister" in the German forum?
I am here only cause our German distributor told me somebody posted on their forum
easy to spot since we had WAY less the 1% warranty



Anyway I already replied to our Canadian distributor
you can ask him to show u my reply ;)


ps... manta

com'on we know that is not a question of cost :bye:
but tech choice


cheers All
thanks for commenting Manta

I love the Moses product and our Canadian provider has given great support. Moses is multiplying here quite quickly and I will continue to be a promoter. I shared the pictures and story so that people can learn and also see the product support I knew I would get from Moses. No product is perfect and the support you get is part of being a customer.

With respect to solid or hollow or foam, who cares as long as the engineering allows for it and you get the right combination of weight and strength. If the engineering and materials allow for less material then perfect. Having a heavy solid mast just to say its solid but without engineering merit is a waste. I believe the larger volume producers like Moses can also afford the engineering and testing and are least likely to put out an inferior product because in volume the cost of replacing stuff is too high.

There are limits to the forces a human can put on one of these and the water provides only so much resistance. They are not aircraft under extreme forces. They should be engineered to well withstand the real forces and not more....that is a waste in my opinion.

Don't get me started on the tuttle box vs the Moses plate!

I put together a new Slingshot hoverglide today....built like an absolute tank but OMG sooooo heavy. Can't imagine even riding it.

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mig27
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Re: Production carbon mast composition

Postby mig27 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:24 am

Again, structural stiffness and torque (twist) resistance has nothing to do with a core.
Only the outer layers are responible for all that.

Take a metal pipe. Compare it with the same diameter solid and with a wall thickness. They will be as strong and stiff, but the hollow one will be much lighter.
That is just physics!

What I can image is when they want to get the best bonding and carbon fibre density in a mast, a mould to press with a lot of force the layers of pre-pregs on each other is necessary. No core, or a soft (foam) core will be compressed resulting in a bad product. So to go for solid is just a way to overcome that problem.


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