Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

How to turn a hydrofoil - and what is YAW ?

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders


plummet
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5946
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:25 pm
Kiting since: 33
Local Beach: EE
Favorite Beaches: NZ
Style: Terrain riding
Gear: Old wornout ozone.
Plummet hydrofoil and mutant
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: How to turn a hydrofoil - and what is YAW ?

Postby plummet » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:38 am

Went out today and focussed some time on my turns. I specifically yaw turned to see what effect it has. I do concede that you can turn a tight arc using yaw as a primary function.

However as turning method it feels crass and lacking flow. I then moved back into what feels natural and flowing to me. That is primarily driven by roll. I roll into the carving tilting the board. Some yaw is used but to a lesser extent.

User avatar
Mitaka
Medium Poster
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:00 pm
Style: wave riding
Gear: Cabrinha Drifter, BRM Cloud C5, F-One MITU, KETOS Wave & Wave XL foil + Pocket 107 & 118 foilboard

Re: How to turn a hydrofoil - and what is YAW ?

Postby Mitaka » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:07 pm

plummet wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:38 am
Went out today and focussed some time on my turns. I specifically yaw turned to see what effect it has. I do concede that you can turn a tight arc using yaw as a primary function.
:thumb:
Tighter, more radical turns are obviously done with more aggressive yaw of the foilboard.
plummet wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:38 am
However as turning method it feels crass and lacking flow. I then moved back into what feels natural and flowing to me. That is primarily driven by roll. I roll into the carving tilting the board. Some yaw is used but to a lesser extent.
Are you sure that you are turning the foil primarily by roll and you do not yaw the board with the pull of your turning kite?

If you like, next time when you go out with your foil, do the following experiment and lets us know how you feel:
When going straight slacken the kite lines by going slightly downwind and then try to initiate a turn by roll only, no yaw and no pull from the kite. It would be interesting to know if you will be able to turn smoothly by roll only if the kite is not pulling you through the turn.

föhn
Rare Poster
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:08 pm
Kiting since: 7
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: How to turn a hydrofoil - and what is YAW ?

Postby föhn » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:10 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:16 pm
PS: This was a pretty long answer to Neil and slowboat in the other thread, but I think others could use it to understand how to turn a hydrofoil thus its own thread :thumb:

8) PF
Bravo!

Thanks :D

föhn
Rare Poster
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:08 pm
Kiting since: 7
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: How to turn a hydrofoil - and what is YAW ?

Postby föhn » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:18 pm

slowboat wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:30 pm
This explanation should come with all foils sold.
:lol:

plummet
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5946
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:25 pm
Kiting since: 33
Local Beach: EE
Favorite Beaches: NZ
Style: Terrain riding
Gear: Old wornout ozone.
Plummet hydrofoil and mutant
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: How to turn a hydrofoil - and what is YAW ?

Postby plummet » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:18 pm

Mitaka wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:07 pm
Are you sure that you are turning the foil primarily by roll and you do not yaw the board with the pull of your turning kite?

If you like, next time when you go out with your foil, do the following experiment and lets us know how you feel:
When going straight slacken the kite lines by going slightly downwind and then try to initiate a turn by roll only, no yaw and no pull from the kite. It would be interesting to know if you will be able to turn smoothly by roll only if the kite is not pulling you through the turn.
Yesterday i cranked upwind 3-4km and then did multiple downiwind turns to get back to where i started. Many off which were kite slack line.
I think slow speed turns definately require more Yaw. To me turning on a foil feels extremely similar to riding a bike around a burm (banked corner). I fall into the corner (turn) using roll as the primarly method, of course there is some yaw, But for the most part i'm falling into the corner with my upper body as apposed to twisting my legs around. The faster you are going the more roll is used and the less yaw is used.

Hey maybe i'm turning the foil completely wrong? Maybe its my 24 years of mountain biking experience taking over?

joyrider1
Medium Poster
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:05 am
Kiting since: 2004
Gear: Directionals
Tubekites
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: How to turn a hydrofoil - and what is YAW ?

Postby joyrider1 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:04 pm

plummet wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:18 pm
Mitaka wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:07 pm
Are you sure that you are turning the foil primarily by roll and you do not yaw the board with the pull of your turning kite?

If you like, next time when you go out with your foil, do the following experiment and lets us know how you feel:
When going straight slacken the kite lines by going slightly downwind and then try to initiate a turn by roll only, no yaw and no pull from the kite. It would be interesting to know if you will be able to turn smoothly by roll only if the kite is not pulling you through the turn.
Yesterday i cranked upwind 3-4km and then did multiple downiwind turns to get back to where i started. Many off which were kite slack line.
I think slow speed turns definately require more Yaw. To me turning on a foil feels extremely similar to riding a bike around a burm (banked corner). I fall into the corner (turn) using roll as the primarly method, of course there is some yaw, But for the most part i'm falling into the corner with my upper body as apposed to twisting my legs around. The faster you are going the more roll is used and the less yaw is used.

Hey maybe i'm turning the foil completely wrong? Maybe its my 24 years of mountain biking experience taking over?
Everything is perfectly fine, I guess you are getting closer to the solution… The slack lines make the principle of the (yaw-initiated) turn better understandable/”feelable”. It`s the “purer” motion.

Low speed turn: To create a certain amount of lean (with slack lines better: way of “out of under” of the foil sideways) you have to either twist more (change of AOA of mast/strut) or wait a little longer to have the amount of lean achieved.
High speed turn: Here to create a certain amount of way of out of under you sideways you have to twist less because at the higher speed the change of amount sideways (creating lean) happens faster.

Analogy to driving a car or similar: If you want to move the car a certain amount sideways to the left or right of the street (lean in KBHF) you have to turn the steering wheels (change of AOA of mast/strut in KBHF). At lower speed you either you have to do more turning of the steering wheels (more creation of lean in KBHF) or wait a little bit longer (wider turn in KBHF). At higher speed you have to turn the steering wheels less to achieve the same amount of sideways movement of the car on the street (lean in KBHF) or you reach the needed amount faster.

Just a thought, Frank, for a better understanding maybe this topic should better be called “how to change direction” instead of “how to turn”? Basically it’s the same, yes I know, but maybe confuses the one or another?

Plummet, analogy of your experience to MTB: The berm doesn`t make you fall into the corner, does it? I claim the berm gives you more security to create the lean that is needed. So I presume actually you do more countersteering to create the faster/bigger lean because the risk of falling is less with the berm “holding” you. I ride MTB as well (this summer for example Hafjell bikepark, Norway, “rollercoaster” ;-)) so I`m a little bit familiar with berms and this stuff…
I propose you just don`t fall into the corner (neither KBHF nor MTB) by itself, something makes you fall into the corner. In KBHF either countersteering or change of pull of the kite or the help of a wave slightly pushing the foil “out of under” you sideways or … or … but countersteering being the most powerful of them all (my conviction).

So I guess you are turning the foil completely right, but maybe are just confused about your new experiences and the thoughts you had before…. :D

My 02 cents

juandesooka
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:05 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: Sooke, BC, Canada
Gear: BWS / Ocean Rodeo / Stringy Foil
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: How to turn a hydrofoil - and what is YAW ?

Postby juandesooka » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:29 am

Funny ... this thread is started to supposedly make it easier for beginners to understand how to turn a foil. Sure seems to over complicate something that is largely intuitive and learned by feel through experience.

But the graphics about what yaw is are interesting. I thought about that boat graphic today when attempting to paddle my sup foil without the sup fins for the first time. Every dig of the paddle was a strong turn as nothing to hold the board straight. The yaw effect was immediate and obvious. But I still lean into turns. ;-)

User avatar
foilonfoil
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 565
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:31 am
Kiting since: 2013
Local Beach: Belmont Shore, CA / Hood River, OR
Favorite Beaches: Crissy Field, San Francisco, CA / Benicia, CA / Sail Bay, San Diego, CA / Hermosa Beach, CA
Style: Kitefoil
Gear: Flysurfer Sonic Race, Core Section V1's, MikesLab Foil, Camet Boards.
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: How to turn a hydrofoil - and what is YAW ?

Postby foilonfoil » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:05 am

Aircraft have the same three axis and control surfaces (rudder for yaw, elevator for pitch, and ailerons for roll) that effect changes along the three axis. A turn in an aircraft requires roll, yaw, and pitch inputs to pull off a coordinated turn. Without appropriate input in any of the three axis, the turn becomes uncoordinated/messy/inefficient together with a loss of altitude.

We require the same three inputs to turn a foil, but without control surfaces, we input changes to the axis through mechanical leverage provided by the pull of the kite and our body mass/movement/twisting around our Center of Gravity. The best example of this is the carving turns by sup foilers and hydrofoil kite surfers with mass balance/movement alone .

User avatar
jeromeL
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:22 pm
Kiting since: 2014
Local Beach: Longisland NY
Style: freestyle
Gear: Fone Bandit 2014 12m^2, 2015 9, 2015 7, 2015 14
Best GP 2015 9m
Star Sirius V2 12m
Nobile Fity/50 138cm
Naish Apex bindings.
Zeeko Green and White + Shinn El Stubbo
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Longisland, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: How to turn a hydrofoil - and what is YAW ?

Postby jeromeL » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:49 pm

joyrider1 wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:25 pm
So much said… Trying to compress

To make the technique more pure, think of an kbhf without the kite, just like a surfboardhydrofoil riding on flat water. With a kite you could somewhat cheat a little bit ;-)

First: (if there`s) No roll, (there will be) no turn without crashing.

Second: the roll is initiated by the yawing/twisting of the riders body. Important note: on the water your feet don’t have a stable anchor, so if your upper body is yawed/twisted clockwise, then your lower body is twisted anticlockwise (actio = reactio)

Third: Try to imagine how the riders center of gravity (hip/belly button) is travelling in a straight line and by twisting his body the mast/strut points out of the direction your body is travelling. Thus the mast/strut is led sideways underneath (!) your body. This happens in a very tiny fraction of a second. You are starting to “fall” sideways. To prevent the total “fall” or crash you have to twist a little bit backwards …..

Finally: on a kbhf the mast/strut acts like a rudder. Mast/strut is almost as effective sideways as the wings act like “rudders” for the pitch.

Countersteering initiates the turn. Not more, not less….. Is valid for so many sports…. (skiing, snowboarding, unicycling etc.) You just don’t feel it…………………….

J.
+1

Haven't' read everything but i think that's best explanation with relationship between YAW and ROLL.

When you go slow enough going downwind with no support from kite you can steer using very big YAW input in direction you want to go but at normal speed and higher speed tiny yaw input breaks the equilibrium enough to shift your center of gravity into the turn and roll the board.

As a beginner for couple of hours I kept falling because of this counter steering effect and it became apparent that trying to recover from roll wasn't working.
Effectively to recover from a wrongly intiated roll you raw the board slightly into the turn so foil gets back under your feet and you can level roll/the board.

Though it's pretty much muscle memory. might be a good thing to know in order to learn tighter turn and really commit into them.

User avatar
jakemoore
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:59 am
Kiting since: 2004
Gear: Foil and 1strut kites.
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Oleander
Contact:

Re: How to turn a hydrofoil - and what is YAW ?

Postby jakemoore » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:30 am

This is a great topic for me because I am learning to turn.

Today I tried turning by yaw into the turn and it works especially at slower speeds. I can't help thinking there is some roll into the turn there as well but not much because slow speeds. The most I could achieve was a wide turn.

Also tried turning using counter steer yaw in the opposite direction of the turn just as a bike. It works well and I think following this path is going to take me into better turns. Is especially useful for me to roll into toe side by yawing away. Challenge for me is its a very small movement and very frequently leads to a crash for my beginner legs.


Return to “Hydrofoil”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

cron