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Countersteering

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joyrider1
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Re: Countersteering

Postby joyrider1 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:02 pm

Mitaka wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:58 pm
slowboat wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:02 pm
Mitaka wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:33 am


...(the front wheel turns and actually initiates the turn) ...

To be clear, I am not saying the analogy is applicable, I am just stating the analogy to see what others think. The front wheel actually turns in the OPPOSITE direction which initiates the roll of the bike toward the direction the bike ultimately turns in. So the bike starts moving in the new direction with ROLL first. This is really the only way to turn a bike. Is that true with a KBHF? (leave the kite out of it)
My answer was based on the countersteering definition posted by revhed in another thread:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
In order to turn left you steer the bike to the right (OPPOSITE direction), your body inclines to the left and then "the front wheel turns and actually initiates the turn" to the left. Nothing to do with Hydrofoiling IMHO. I already posted in the other thread:
viewtopic.php?t=2398338&p=999391
Hydrofoiling and biking is exactly (!!!!!!!!!!!!) the same in this point. The mast/strut does the precise same motion. Put the kite away in your scenario, it only complicates the pure principle.

joyrider1
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Re: Countersteering

Postby joyrider1 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:12 pm

evan wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:06 pm
Yes, you need your COG at the inside of the turn and just like a bike you need to offset the balance by countersteering so that you "fall" into the turn. But just like a bike this is someting that comes naturally, not something you are actively thinking about.
Right, but maybe it helps the one or other, just like this senctence from my posted link in the other thread:
"I really wondered how some people can ride strapless, yet I cannot even control the roll of the board with two footstraps. And then a light came on: To correct the board's roll, you must steer the board in the direction it is falling towards." By steering he means the steering of the nose to the left or the right (yaw, not roll!!!!!). It is like a visual translation of what you are actually doing, even if you don`t know what is behind it....

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Re: Countersteering

Postby Mossy 757 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:40 pm

I think the example of the bike is unhelpful as an intuition pump to hydrofoiling since the gyroscopic stabilizing of the bike completely messes with one's ability to perceive what's actually happening. I ride my beach cruiser with no hands all the time, even around relatively sharp corners, and it's all just weight transfer pushing my "moment" against the gyroscopic moment created by the wheels. Counter steering is only necessary in a tire-directed turn, if the turn is initiated with weight transfer the wheel will follow the radius of the turn and then stabilize back into the forward direction once you straighten out due to the gyroscopic effect.

joyrider1
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Re: Countersteering

Postby joyrider1 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:48 pm

Mossy 757 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:40 pm
I think the example of the bike is unhelpful as an intuition pump to hydrofoiling since the gyroscopic stabilizing of the bike completely messes with one's ability to perceive what's actually happening. I ride my beach cruiser with no hands all the time, even around relatively sharp corners, and it's all just weight transfer pushing my "moment" against the gyroscopic moment created by the wheels. Counter steering is only necessary in a tire-directed turn, if the turn is initiated with weight transfer the wheel will follow the radius of the turn and then stabilize back into the forward direction once you straighten out due to the gyroscopic effect.
The gyroscopic effect is just reducing the countersteering a little bit. In low speed the gyroscopic effect has very little to no effect.
If you had skates (no gyroscopic effect) instead fo wheels on your bike you would realize. 10 days ago I was riding a snowbike (MTB like bob with two little skis instead of wheels,very much fun :D ), the same principle with countersteering applies.

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Re: Countersteering

Postby joyrider1 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:56 pm

Another example of useful application of countersteering for safety reasons in KBHF is making something like an “emergency turn”.

Analogy to motorbiking safety training. Pretend you wanted to dodge an obstacle by turning away from it. Pretend a left turn. I was taught to push this side of the handle bar in which direction you wanted to go. So you would push the left side of the handlebar for a very short (!) moment. You would train this at mid speed, not too slow. This is the fasted way to create the necessary roll to change direction. Of course you would stabilize the bike after the short push… Can be trained on no-motor-bikes of course as well. :D

Transfer to KBHF: Make the nose of your board go quickly to the other side that you want to turn to by twisting/yawing your body. (OK, you could instead sheet the kite fast, but until your executed linetension leads to a change in kitepull it takes much more time. Especially in lower winds. OK, you could instead lean yourself to one side. But do you want to kink? I would avoid everything to leave the alignment between my body and the mast/strut.)

So again: The fastest and most accurate way to change direction is to twist/yaw your body and in result countersteer for this very short moment.

To all the beginners: Train this yawing/twisting with your foil fully submerged and try not to rely too much on the kitepull for balance. The water should be flat, chop might be tricky. Just for this training with board on the water surface you can extend your legs almost fully (not too far apart) and anticipate the twist of your upper/lower body.

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Re: Countersteering

Postby joyrider1 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:11 pm

Mossy 757 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:40 pm
I think the example of the bike is unhelpful as an intuition pump to hydrofoiling since the gyroscopic stabilizing of the bike completely messes with one's ability to perceive what's actually happening. I ride my beach cruiser with no hands all the time, even around relatively sharp corners, and it's all just weight transfer pushing my "moment" against the gyroscopic moment created by the wheels. Counter steering is only necessary in a tire-directed turn, if the turn is initiated with weight transfer the wheel will follow the radius of the turn and then stabilize back into the forward direction once you straighten out due to the gyroscopic effect.
And again: The gyroscopic effect shows perfectly the difference in these tecniques for making a motorbike turn. At very high speed you can change your weight on the motorbike as much as you want (stands for the change of lean), it will travel straigh. The only way to make it turn at higher speed is to force it into roll by countersteering. The countersteering by yawing/twisting is the way more powerful tool to initiate and (!) maintain a turn in KBHF.

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Re: Countersteering

Postby revhed » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:29 pm

How do you initiate the counter steer?
Do you counter counter steer?
How do you initiate that? By counter counter counter steering?
Must say a little, no VERY tired of bike, and plane comparisons simply because our KBHFs have NO gyroscopic effect, OR use independent control surfaces.
I am not sure either way, also about yaw and roll, but will with pleasure read any and all posts directly relating to our under water flying sport toys.
R H

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Re: Countersteering

Postby joyrider1 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:13 pm

revhed wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:29 pm
How do you initiate the counter steer?
Do you counter counter steer?
How do you initiate that? By counter counter counter steering?
Must say a little, no VERY tired of bike, and plane comparisons simply because our KBHFs have NO gyroscopic effect, OR use independent control surfaces.
I am not sure either way, also about yaw and roll, but will with pleasure read any and all posts directly relating to our under water flying sport toys.
R H
OK, revhed, just for you ;-)
In my mind I am almost as passionate as you about this great sport so I can understand your hunger for details. My experience is from other sports as well (Windsurfing, snowboarding, skiing, motorbiking, MTB, skateboarding, paragliding, golf, tennis, rowing, …. so I have a little experience in physics and applied forces and can compare from the other sports`experiences. But I know not all and might be wrong… English is not my native language so I might pick here and there the not total correct tech jargon.

First: Did you make my suggested self test? Do you believe/accept that countersteering in general is a thing that really exists although you might not feel it?

Second: The mast/strut is submerged under water for some part while foiling, OK. Do you believe/accept that the mast can transfer inputs from the rider to the water just like the rider transfers inputs to the wings, for example whilst kangarooing ? Do you believe/accept that the change of AOA of the mast has quite the same effect than the change of AOA of the wings? We all know how much effect even one degree change can make with the wings, right?

Third: When the foil (wings and must/strut) is travelling in the water, then this is the contact patch of the whole foil/rider/kite system where force can be applied to. Just like when an ice yacht is traveling over the ice, the blade of the skate is leading the whole system in the direction where the longitudinal axis of the blade is pointing to. It is quite hard to manipulate the ice yacht out of the direction where the skates are pointing to when the blades have good grip on the ice. Our hydrofoil has this kind of grip in the water. Can you believe/accept that?

Fourth: Watch Mitakas linked video https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... QqozDNT0UY (Not so important but just to complete the following information and make it clearer: The foil in the water shows great resistance in the direction sideways to the chord, just like the skate shows resistance when you try to push the blade sideways over the ice, OK we all know that. The foil shows very little resistance when for example pushed in the direction of the chord, OK we all know that too and love the effect ;-)) Important: The foil shows very little resistance when turned to change the AOA. You know how little force it takes to change the AOA of the wings, you just put a tad more pressure on either the front or rear foot and have an immediate (!) and clear response. Pretend the lady in the video would stand on the hydrofoil, then imagine what happens when she twists/turns/yaws her body. The upper body turns in one way, the lower body turns the other, because in this rotating movement the disc has very little resistance. Just like the mast/strut would give very little resistance when only AOA is changed. Do you believe/accept that the force for changing the AOA of the mast/strut can be just as little as for the wings?

If you can answer the above four statements with “yes” then let`s put the information together:
The turn is initiated by the rider twisting like the lady in the video. The rider needs not necessarily an contact patch to push himself away or towards to. By twisting the body the described way the AOA of the strut/mast is changed, actio = reactio, I do not ask you if you believe this, it should be proven enough ;-) When travelling at a certain speed your body has a momentum, it wants to travel the direction it started until a new/additional force is applied, we all know that. By changing the AOA of the mast/strut, the whole foil underneath you is pulled/pushed “out from under” you sideways (just like the wings would be pulled/pushed up or down when AOA of the wings would change, remember the contact patch and the good “grip” in the water?).

This is the countersteering. It was initated by the rider body`s twist itself. No further initiation or counter counter counter force needed. This countersteering leads to the most immediate and clear change of roll/lean which is needed for the turn.

I never said that yaw is the only thing to turn a KBHF. But I believe (and know for myself ;-)) strongly that just like the impact of the change of AOA is massive for the wings, the effect is as massive for the change of AOG of the mast/strut. Besides: That`s why I stated in another post that for me the mast/strut should be called “rudder” instead. I really mean this, but I seem to be the only guy thinking this way, so please lower your blood pressure again, no need to worry about your beloved “strut” ;-)
It generally makes no difference if we ride as straight as possible or try to turn little or massive, but because of the above said we always have to correct AOA of the mast/strut constantly just like we always have to correct AOA of the wings. And yes, riding and turning it`s of course always a combination of both.

Yes, in other sports you can push yourself more easily from a given contact patch into the lean/roll. But the effect of for example sheeting the kite has not the immediate and clear response as the change of AOA but of course you use it additionally.

Because the slightest change of AOA is so massively immediate and clear it is so brutal when not under control, especially the effect of the mast/strut. See all the crashes from beginners even at low speed and low wind. (Just like a highsider with a motorbike, sorry for the comparison with motorbike ;-)) I ask everybody if you have seen this kind of brutal crashes from mistakes from kite control in low winds/speeds in TT beginners?

If you do not agree with the essence of the four points above that`s very fine. Right now I can`t explain any better….

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Re: Countersteering

Postby flying grandpa » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:53 pm

revhed wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:29 pm
How do you initiate the counter steer?
Do you counter counter steer?
How do you initiate that? By counter counter counter steering?
Must say a little, no VERY tired of bike, and plane comparisons simply because our KBHFs have NO gyroscopic effect, OR use independent control surfaces.
I am not sure either way, also about yaw and roll, but will with pleasure read any and all posts directly relating to our under water flying sport toys.
R H
IMHO there are three ways to initiate the turn:
1. Counterrotation of the body to turn the FB in desired direction as seen on [vimeo]vimeo.com/201024403[/vimeo] at 2:08. We can use it for light turns.
2. Couter steer the board to gain enough bank angle and then use back foot pressure to turn (you can feel this effect easily on Zeeko Spitfire). You can see it at 1:07/1:08 on [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjmpKXGLsbM[/youtube]
3. Creating a turning momentum by pushing the bar to left or right side with enough line tension, as seen on my photo:Image where I move my bar far left to turn right. Rider in [youtube]https://youtu.be/z8PJ0Bf1dTg[/youtube] use a lot of this at:
0:57-59
1:07
1:09
1:41
1:51
Of course, we are using a mix of this technics in reality to tighten the turn, but it goes to muscle memory after hours on water.

Tadeusz

PS.
Do you know why the movies display so different in my post?


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