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Wave Riding with a Foil Limits

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plummet
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Re: Wave Riding with a Foil Limits

Postby plummet » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:30 pm

kitehawaii wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:21 pm
plummet wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:23 pm
In the video you are foiling in between surfers while on the wave. In my opinion that is not cool! You are blasting along with a floating axe that could potentially kill someone in the water. Stay away from the surfers and use the foil to get to wave sections the surfers can reach.
Hookipa is a tight spot and there are life guards monitoring safety on the water. I've had meetings with the life guards and informed them that I was trying something new. It is impossible to not be around surfers at this spot. It is my responsibility to be safe and take care of the safety of all those in the water with me. That is my over riding goal in every session and every wave.

I think each person who wants to try this should try it alone and away from others and and learn their limits and limits of their equipment. All decisions should come from that. The beatings suck and hurt. I don't anticipate many people will be willing to pay the dues.
Image
Unless you know each individual surfer and they are prepared for you to risk their lives it is not ok to ride through the line up on a foil. Find a different location.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Wave Riding with a Foil Limits

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:39 pm

kitehawaii wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:52 pm
You say "wear a helmet" - but you dont on the video ?
Or was that the day you learned that :naughty:

You will fall forward and when the wave pushes the foil at you then it is a bit playing the odds whether the foil will hit you or not.

Some of my early sessions were with a helmet but on this one I felt more confident about how to avoid the situation.

So true, I started hydrofoiling wearing a helmet, but when learned (and later learned to foil in waves) I dont anymore.

Eventhough I agree it is WAY more risky, maybe the only risky situation, in waves, even small ones actually, so a helmet can only be recommended indeed :roll:
But you learn how to tuck/jump/crash/dive and avoid the foil so the risk gets a lot smaller when experienced :naughty:

8) Peter

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NYKiter
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Re: Wave Riding with a Foil Limits

Postby NYKiter » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:01 pm

Bad wave for regular surfing up to head high....but I didnt surf it when it was huge....so.....nice vid!

stevez
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Re: Wave Riding with a Foil Limits

Postby stevez » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:57 am

Great to see this. That's pretty full-on. Big :thumb: :thumb: for pushing the limits.
I'm not surprised the surfers hate this! I would too! I'd stay out of their way.

Most of the video it looks like you're riding upwind when you're heading left.
It also looks like you're riding highly powered. Out of interest what's the wind strength and kite size? Looks like about a 7 in 30+ knots.
There are a few short clips of you heading downwind to the right - e.g. around 2:06 and 3:21 on the video.
That's kind of more interesting to me, even though you're not riding in the critical section, as there you're riding under wave power only or mainly at least.
To me riding the wave upwind under kite power doesn't have quite the same appeal, though of course it must be a real rush to be in waves that size.
What I'd really like to see is someone riding to the right, slowing it down a little, manoeuvring under little to no kite power.
Something like a Gofoil works well for that riding style in lighter conditions, but the thick wings would probably be too slow for waves of that speed and power, and probably necessary either. Maybe something in between?

In terms of where the limits are:
What size wave can be ridden with a kite foil?
In what wind conditions is it viable? - the bigger and faster the waves the more windy it needs to be for the kite to be able to keep up, and like you say, angle is important.
And I'm really interested in knowing where the limits are where the kite is being used as just the tow - i.e. big wave foil surfing towing in with a kite.
Optimal equipment? Both foil size and characteristics, mast length, kite size etc.
All this is still up for grabs if you ask me, well done for taking on the challenge.

The Armstrong foils look really interesting.

kitehawaii
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Re: Wave Riding with a Foil Limits

Postby kitehawaii » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:37 am

stevez wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:57 am
Great to see this. That's pretty full-on. Big :thumb: :thumb: for pushing the limits.
I'm not surprised the surfers hate this! I would too! I'd stay out of their way.
It's only a few grumpy old surfers and some with a bad attitude. The pros are pretty open to seeing what I can do.
stevez wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:57 am
Most of the video it looks like you're riding upwind when you're heading left.
It also looks like you're riding highly powered. Out of interest what's the wind strength and kite size? Looks like about a 7 in 30+ knots.
There are a few short clips of you heading downwind to the right - e.g. around 2:06 and 3:21 on the video.
That's kind of more interesting to me, even though you're not riding in the critical section, as there you're riding under wave power only or mainly at least.
To me riding the wave upwind under kite power doesn't have quite the same appeal, though of course it must be a real rush to be in waves that size.
What I'd really like to see is someone riding to the right, slowing it down a little, manoeuvring under little to no kite power.
Something like a Gofoil works well for that riding style in lighter conditions, but the thick wings would probably be too slow for waves of that speed and power, and probably necessary either. Maybe something in between?
Riding upwind at the Lane bowl was the best part of the session. The swell direction was perfect for the left to work as you can see from the 8 or so surfers. I've only been able to do this a couple of times on a regular surf board and it was amazing to go upwind and then have to go downwind to catch the next wave. The opposite of normal. With a foil I was doing laps and I caught at least 20 waves in 40 min.

Everybody rides downwind so getting one without some one else on it was more of a challenge. Slowing down is the other challenge. Keeping the kite high almost impossible as you need to accelerate if you get behind the lip and when the wind goes offshore the kite will drop behind the wave and acceleration is guaranteed.
stevez wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:57 am
In terms of where the limits are:
What size wave can be ridden with a kite foil?
In what wind conditions is it viable? - the bigger and faster the waves the more windy it needs to be for the kite to be able to keep up, and like you say, angle is important.
And I'm really interested in knowing where the limits are where the kite is being used as just the tow - i.e. big wave foil surfing towing in with a kite.
Optimal equipment? Both foil size and characteristics, mast length, kite size etc.
All this is still up for grabs if you ask me, well done for taking on the challenge.

The Armstrong foils look really interesting.
Three times overhead is my goal. I did a swell last week with huge cross chop in the line up and that really sucked. With the kite straight overhead it doesn't feel natural carving a turn. Not sure if there is a solution for that.

Armstrong Foils are great. Bomber construction which is required for pushing the limits in bigger waves. If it can break it will in the waves. So far these mast are super stiff and all the connections are super solid. Pre peg construction seems to be the key.

I don't believe aluminum can take the punishment using foot straps to through the foil around.

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lezo
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Re: Wave Riding with a Foil Limits

Postby lezo » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:01 pm

The question of optimal foil speed depending from wave size is interesting here.

Actually I use also a fast semi-gun surf for powered wavekiting, perfect when waves are starting to get higher than overhead. So maybe my fast Spotz (freerace wing+105 cm mast) could also fit for foilkitesurfing in good wave conditions but I should skip the planned first sessions in small waves.. Need some balls and an empty wave spot, fortunately the latter is easy to find by the current Atlantic France winter conditions.. ;)

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Slappysan
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Re: Wave Riding with a Foil Limits

Postby Slappysan » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:20 pm

While what you are doing looks challenging I don't see much actual wave riding, it actually looks a lot more like shooting waves on a TT than it does surfing.

3InletsWindsports
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Re: Wave Riding with a Foil Limits

Postby 3InletsWindsports » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:16 pm

This is the style we need to see more of
https://vimeo.com/252792184

juandesooka
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Re: Wave Riding with a Foil Limits

Postby juandesooka » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:39 pm

I find it's hard to have a conversation with kiters in general about waves and surfing, unless they also have some non-kiting waveriding experience. I take an inclusive view in defining "surfing": it can encompass a wide variety of wave riding, whether it's shortboards, longboards, boogie boards, skim boards, paipos, alaias, SUPs, foils, outrigger canoes, or kayaks. The common factor between all these is riding on waves. With that definition, I am unsure if I'd call boosting off waves "surfing" -- or even when you are kiting in and around waves, doing big gouges on them, like riding moving quarter pipes. Don't get me wrong, I am not intending to judge what is cool or uncool ... these are all super fun and super rad ... but perhaps not "surfing", even in a wide definition.

The issue that arises is a communication problem, especially once foiling with a kite is brought into it. Most surfers consider any kind of foiling an abomination. As in "it isn't surfing if you can't make some spray or get barreled". I think that's silly. But I tend to agree that if you are not riding in the wave face, interacting with the wave's energy, then you may not be surfing. Though I don't think surfing is limited to riding on the surface of the wave, as a foil can ride inside the wave's energy, same way a dolphin surfs. The key is it is riding the wave's energy.

As kite foiling evolves, I think we're starting to see two distinct camps or ways of doing things: 1) people trying to ride the wave faces in the absence of the kite's power, which tends to be larger sup/surf foils that go very slow compared to what we're used to in kiting; and 2) wave oriented kite foils where the riders zip in and around and amongst waves, carving on the faces, but usually only momentarily on the wave face. These are two very different things ... but when talking a fellow kiter and fellow foiler, I find it's pretty hard to tell from a quick conversation which type of riding they mean, if they say "wave riding with a foil". I see a lot of arguments in these forums and on facebook is from people talking about apples when they actually mean oranges, and vice versa.

In the end, who cares. It's all supposed to be about having fun. And I get that some people find arguing online to be fun too. ;-)

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Wave Riding with a Foil Limits

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:15 pm

very true juandesooka :D

8) PF


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