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Kite for 18+ knots

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Pedro Marcos
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Re: Kite for 18+ knots

Postby Pedro Marcos » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:08 am

Frank Rosin wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:35 pm
Last session I used 5m lines on it for half an hour. But the wind was not really strong enough to make waterstart enjoyable. The 4 starts I had to do during that 30 minutes / 10km were a bit of a pain.
So I switched to 7m lines that I have been using for two sessions before on the 5m and 7m Hyperlink and that worked fine again, no issues to get started.
For the record, my board is 120x42cm and I have been on the Moses race wings 2018 (and later also one of the new Moses SUP/surf wings, interesting to kite on too), and I am around 85kg.
I do not think this is super important though.

You asked about 25m lines, well... it depends on water conditions mostly if pushing low-end. Perfectly calm water compared to messy moving water makes a massive difference.
I have not pushed low end riding like this with the 5m HL as I have been doing with the 6m R1 before, or before that on the 5m Reo for example.
So it would be guessing. And then it is also a question of what counts to be the low-end. If pushing it in the right conditions I am sure I could ride back and forth in under 10 knots.

Not sure if this tells you much really...

Cheers,
Frank
www.famousfrank.com
How windy it was in that 5m with 7m lines sessions? What the low end of that setup?

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Re: Kite for 18+ knots

Postby Frank Rosin » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:26 am

Pedro Marcos wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:56 am
Frank Rosin wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:52 pm
Pedro Marcos wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:25 pm

Keep posting some videos, you are getting quite skilled at it.
Actually having trouble to get footage, mostly too far from shore to be filmed from there (and not always somebody to find to do it in current weather conditions), line mounts do not work with my setups anymore.
So the only way would be to mount the camera on the board or on my body. But I am not sure how to get footage that is worth it? Any ideas or video examples that actually work well?

Cheers,
Frank
www.famousfrank.com
I like when i can see what the kite is doing, the drone views are cool :)

Agree, but tricky or impossible in stronger winds.

Cheers Frank
www.famousfrank.com

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Re: Kite for 18+ knots

Postby Frank Rosin » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:33 am

Pedro Marcos wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:08 am
Frank Rosin wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:35 pm
Last session I used 5m lines on it for half an hour. But the wind was not really strong enough to make waterstart enjoyable. The 4 starts I had to do during that 30 minutes / 10km were a bit of a pain.
So I switched to 7m lines that I have been using for two sessions before on the 5m and 7m Hyperlink and that worked fine again, no issues to get started.
For the record, my board is 120x42cm and I have been on the Moses race wings 2018 (and later also one of the new Moses SUP/surf wings, interesting to kite on too), and I am around 85kg.
I do not think this is super important though.

You asked about 25m lines, well... it depends on water conditions mostly if pushing low-end. Perfectly calm water compared to messy moving water makes a massive difference.
I have not pushed low end riding like this with the 5m HL as I have been doing with the 6m R1 before, or before that on the 5m Reo for example.
So it would be guessing. And then it is also a question of what counts to be the low-end. If pushing it in the right conditions I am sure I could ride back and forth in under 10 knots.

Not sure if this tells you much really...

Cheers,
Frank
www.famousfrank.com
How windy it was in that 5m with 7m lines sessions? What the low end of that setup?

Yesterday I think 20-25 knots, later gusting 30.
Low-end is mostly about getting up on the board (and then the foil) and how convenient that is.
I'd say I do not want to ride 5m lines below close to 30 knots, unless sheltered flat water,then 20 knots could be fun already.

On 7m lines anything from about 18 knots should be fine.

On 12m lines it could be way lower. But lately I prefer to ride with some power instead of always pushing to tide the smallest kite possible, which was fun gor a while and taught me a lot.

Cheers
Frank
www.famousfrank.com
Last edited by Frank Rosin on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Kite for 18+ knots

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:01 am

Pedro Marcos wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:19 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:47 pm
Hi Pedro - not sure I understand your question here ?

You have loads of experience with everything, so assume you have ridden your small wavekites in this wind, or ?

From 18 knots I, average weight, ride a 5 m2 LEI wavekite, sometimes a 6 if only 16-18 but then quickly too powered, even on my smallest wing.

Around 22 knots the 5 is still just possible to ride, but on the upper end and not sweetspot anymore, and for riding waves, NOT good, again not sure if you want freestyle/waves or speed.

But I assume you know this, thus not sure about your question, or it is about small foilkites and not LEIs at all maybe ?

8) PF

Actually my smallest wavekite is a 6m LEI, and im too powered on that on 18+ knots, so i need a smaller kite, i really want to have the "underpowered" feel in this conditions, so im not sure if a 5m LEI will do the job, maybe a foil kite having alot more deepower will be better? Ive never tried small foil kites and i just imagine how messy it can be in high winds with all the bridles and stuff.

I also tried my 6m LEI with shorter lines, but it doesnt work, or at least it doesnt work as good as it works on the foils kites, i get lots of short power spikes on the LEIs which is quite annoying.

Im looking just for Freestyle/waveride on the hidrofoil in this winds, i feel that "race setup" its pointless in this winds, unless i decide to enter some national competitions, which i wont until i get 10/10 on tacks and gybes and i bet that will take at least 1 more year.

Aaah, okay, then we are on the very same tune here Pedro :thumb:

Precisely as you have experienced, a 6 m2 is overpowered when reaching 18 knots and up...
And using shorter lines, you get this YUK YUK on off feeling and powerspikes - I hate this too thus use 25 m lines on my small kites, to avoid this...

You are right, a 5 m2 will work from 18 knots but only up to around 22, then it starts getting overpowered quite fast :(
So a quite narrow "sweet" wind range, you are spot on.
Of course one can easily ride in much more wind with a 5 - but that was not the goal, your goal (as well as mine) was to be able to ride pleasantly powered.

I got a 3.5 m2, but it needs around 23 knots and more, so not really any overlap, the gap is quite big in fact (43 % difference in size is too much...)

Now I understand your question about other kite types too, like small foil kites.

From 18 to 23 knots there is 63 % more power in the wind, so hard, probably impossible, to find one kite that covers this pleasantly.

Having said that, it is amazing how much windrange a small kite got when we hydrofoil - but when talking numbers (average wind), not so much range really :roll:

8) PF

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Re: Kite for 18+ knots

Postby plummet » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:21 am

Why are you guys over powered on a 6m in 18 knots?

Are you using massive wings? Are your foils set up with too much aoa on the rear wing or do you simply have poor speed control?

I'm still on the 8m and loving it in 18 knots.l

But to the question at hand. Keep buying smaller kites to extend the upper range. 1 strut or 3 strut low aspect will do.

I have 6m reo and 4m uno

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Pedro Marcos
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Re: Kite for 18+ knots

Postby Pedro Marcos » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:42 am

plummet wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:21 am
Why are you guys over powered on a 6m in 18 knots?

Are you using massive wings? Are your foils set up with too much aoa on the rear wing or do you simply have poor speed control?

I'm still on the 8m and loving it in 18 knots.l

But to the question at hand. Keep buying smaller kites to extend the upper range. 1 strut or 3 strut low aspect will do.

I have 6m reo and 4m uno
I mainly use the Moses 550+325, which does not have much area. The overpower feel comes with the speed, on 25m lines and a 6m i feel perfect on the beach, i feel perfect when waterstarting, but as soon as i get some speed i am overpowered. Yes i can handle that power easily if i point hard upwind, but im searching for underpowered feel in this conditions.

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Re: Kite for 18+ knots

Postby Pedro Marcos » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:45 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:01 am
Pedro Marcos wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:19 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:47 pm
Hi Pedro - not sure I understand your question here ?

You have loads of experience with everything, so assume you have ridden your small wavekites in this wind, or ?

From 18 knots I, average weight, ride a 5 m2 LEI wavekite, sometimes a 6 if only 16-18 but then quickly too powered, even on my smallest wing.

Around 22 knots the 5 is still just possible to ride, but on the upper end and not sweetspot anymore, and for riding waves, NOT good, again not sure if you want freestyle/waves or speed.

But I assume you know this, thus not sure about your question, or it is about small foilkites and not LEIs at all maybe ?

8) PF

Actually my smallest wavekite is a 6m LEI, and im too powered on that on 18+ knots, so i need a smaller kite, i really want to have the "underpowered" feel in this conditions, so im not sure if a 5m LEI will do the job, maybe a foil kite having alot more deepower will be better? Ive never tried small foil kites and i just imagine how messy it can be in high winds with all the bridles and stuff.

I also tried my 6m LEI with shorter lines, but it doesnt work, or at least it doesnt work as good as it works on the foils kites, i get lots of short power spikes on the LEIs which is quite annoying.

Im looking just for Freestyle/waveride on the hidrofoil in this winds, i feel that "race setup" its pointless in this winds, unless i decide to enter some national competitions, which i wont until i get 10/10 on tacks and gybes and i bet that will take at least 1 more year.

Aaah, okay, then we are on the very same tune here Pedro :thumb:

Precisely as you have experienced, a 6 m2 is overpowered when reaching 18 knots and up...
And using shorter lines, you get this YUK YUK on off feeling and powerspikes - I hate this too thus use 25 m lines on my small kites, to avoid this...

You are right, a 5 m2 will work from 18 knots but only up to around 22, then it starts getting overpowered quite fast :(
So a quite narrow "sweet" wind range, you are spot on.
Of course one can easily ride in much more wind with a 5 - but that was not the goal, your goal (as well as mine) was to be able to ride pleasantly powered.

I got a 3.5 m2, but it needs around 23 knots and more, so not really any overlap, the gap is quite big in fact (43 % difference in size is too much...)

Now I understand your question about other kite types too, like small foil kites.

From 18 to 23 knots there is 63 % more power in the wind, so hard, probably impossible, to find one kite that covers this pleasantly.

Having said that, it is amazing how much windrange a small kite got when we hydrofoil - but when talking numbers (average wind), not so much range really :roll:

8) PF

Yes it seems the High End range its really hard to get, at least with LEI kites, i dont want to be on a kite that i cannot waterstart bellow 18-20 knots that will also be annoying.

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Re: Kite for 18+ knots

Postby slowboat » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:09 pm

Pedro, what about the Concept Air 4.5? Seems to have great windrange.

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Pedro Marcos
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Re: Kite for 18+ knots

Postby Pedro Marcos » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:22 pm

slowboat wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:09 pm
Pedro, what about the Concept Air 4.5? Seems to have great windrange.
Ive no idea, those kites do not exist where i live.

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Re: Kite for 18+ knots

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:04 pm

plummet wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:21 am
Why are you guys over powered on a 6m in 18 knots?

Are you using massive wings? Are your foils set up with too much aoa on the rear wing or do you simply have poor speed control?

I'm still on the 8m and loving it in 18 knots.l

But to the question at hand. Keep buying smaller kites to extend the upper range. 1 strut or 3 strut low aspect will do.

I have 6m reo and 4m uno

I will answer this question Plummet, pretty sure it goes for both Pedro and me:

Are you using massive wings?
No, a really small wing in this wind, but wing size does not matter, I occasionally use a big wave wing or even bigger lightwind wing with smallest kites, does not change what you can ride in as you dont get overpowered on bigger wings because they are slower, you can just start much earlier.

Are your foils set up with too much aoa on the rear wing or do you simply have poor speed control?
No, all our foils are set up "perfectly" I am sure, and the wing does not come out of the water, and pretty sure we both got loads of experience and control, eventhough there is always some who are a lot better, true :rollgrin:

Overpowered for our use is when not in the sweetspot anymore for handling-turning-carving, so if you dont jump, but do freestyle and ride waves, +18 knots is where the 6 m2 starts to be too big for the average weight :D

Of course we can ride with a 6 m2 on a hydrofoil in same wind as with a TT if you wanted to, meaning 25-30 knots would be possible on a hydrofoil, but NOT fun whatsoever unless you want to go fast or jump.

8) PF


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