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Going from Short Mast to Long mast Advice

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Sandras
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Re: Going from Short Mast to Long mast Advice

Postby Sandras » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:11 pm

OK, maybe I was too blunt.

If you need a shorter mast for swallows of course its not a waste.

From what I read, short mast systems bring a benefit to the first few sessions only, therefore a waste of money imho. (as long as you enjoy the learning, which is needed for foiling)

Now that I read that you must retrain your muscle memory, i.e. having additional learning time, I completely miss the point of its existence...

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Re: Going from Short Mast to Long mast Advice

Postby Laughingman » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:18 pm

Sandras wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:11 pm
OK, maybe I was too blunt.

If you need a shorter mast for swallows of course its not a waste.

From what I read, short mast systems bring a benefit to the first few sessions only, therefore a waste of money imho. (as long as you enjoy the learning, which is needed for foiling)

Now that I read that you must retrain your muscle memory, i.e. having additional learning time, I completely miss the point of its existence...
No I don't think so, you do have to retrain when the board is on the water but once on foil it reacts very much the same way, a bit more sluggish but not as much adjustment needed. The point of the short mast is to make learning less painful and less scary, so that when you porpoise the landings are not so harsh. I would certainly encourage more people to use the short to start with but I would also encourage them to switch to the long mast as soon as they can fly in control... no more porpoising or stubbing the nose into the water. I stayed on the short mast too long and likely the OP as well.

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Re: Going from Short Mast to Long mast Advice

Postby Sandras » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:29 pm

OK, got you but I would still propose as mentioned above plenty of surface rides and after that small hops and immediate landings.
I'm not a skilled rider but that served me well while learning
(and if waterstarting is too difficult, take the fuselage off, for your first ie second session)

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Re: Going from Short Mast to Long mast Advice

Postby Mossy 757 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:48 pm

So instead of spending 10-20 hours learning how to hydrofoil with 1 mast size, you're spending 5-10 hours per-mast learning AND spending an extra couple hundred of $$ buying a second mast.

Same time to become proficient on a full mast, only the hydrofoil company makes an extra 20-40% profit. Great system, total game changer :roll:

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Re: Going from Short Mast to Long mast Advice

Postby Big Wally » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:22 pm

Thanks guys. All of this really helps. Sounds like my take away is to just go spend some time on the long mast.

I think what was throwing me was the Stiffer/less ease of movement of the Long mast. So if I get pulled some Leeward I must be used to correcting that with the Short mast very easy while riding on top of the water BEFORE I foil up. The Long Mast feels so STIFF for obvious reasons that I guess when i need to make a correction riding on top of the water I am not prepared to give it more time to make the correction thus causing me to fall BEFORE I'm on foil. Im not concerned about actually Foiling on the Long mast it just was SURPRISING to me as it seemed MORE difficult to ride the LONG Mast on TOP of the water with the board and to get Much Speed on top of the water before getting tossed.

So summarizing: If I get off balance or pulled over from the center of the board, the Long mast takes longer to be corrected so I need to think about the longer pendulum example maybe go slower diving the kite and slower standing up on the board??

I think the light bulb just came on: Tell me if I am correct: When i dive the kite with a Short mast i come up and stand up sooner about like riding a surfboard.

When I try the same with the Long mast my body comes up the same speed as the short mast BUT the LONG MAST is lagging making it feel like its stuck or dragging therefor since I Cannot overpower the Long mast I get pitched????

Does that make sense???

BW
Last edited by Big Wally on Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Going from Short Mast to Long mast Advice

Postby UKSurf » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:29 pm

Short mast makes hydrofoiling alot safer and easier - I would not say it is a waste of time. Hydrofoiling is a dangrous activity, especially in the early phases. I agree there is definitely a temptation to stay on the short mast too long, I am certainly in this camp.

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Re: Going from Short Mast to Long mast Advice

Postby Foil » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:13 am

UKSurf wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:29 pm
Short mast makes hydrofoiling a lot safer and easier - I would not say it is a waste of time. Hydrofoiling is a dangerous activity, especially in the early phases. I agree there is definitely a temptation to stay on the short mast too long, I am certainly in this camp.
I agree with recommending using the school mast learning stages and surface riding as it is a safer and much faster way to get to the point of sustained level flight with big smiles and celebrating the yeeharr moments.
Pushing forward as quickly as possible through the mast lengths will get you through to this ultimate goal, staying short may dull the experience and you may get comfortable in the short zone without experiencing the real rush you get flying fast and high,and almost in in control, being completely in control only seems to happen in short bursts linking these in-control moments together becomes the aim of everybody but this takes lots of water time and the challenges never seen to get easier which is one reason why I just love it, its never easy, even though others seem to make it look so easy.

When your comfortable with a long mast of 90cm or over, you do look back and view the short masts as school kit, I sold my 71cm mast after 3 months as I wanted to concentrate on my long mast without distraction, however I did eventually regret this decision.

I found that the long mast let me cruise around at speed feeling like I had it nailed and craving more and more speed, however flying gybes became a sticking point for me as it does for many others, some never seem to get past this stage and give in or accept that bum in the water gybes are good enough, this is where the large surf style pump wings attached to a short mast came to my rescue and shortened my learning pain.

It instantly removed the problems I was experiencing, mainly the fear of crashing hard, multiple times and getting totally frustrated, I like many others found that using a standard long mast with standard freeride wings were holding my progress back, as I found out that looping the kite to pull me round into a gybe was just so hard as this was so counterintuitive as my brain was telling me the faster you go the more this will end badly and will hurt,and everyone was telling me you need to do this to succeed,It was ruddy difficult and I was stuck.

The short mast and big wing allowed me to fly gybe instantly, in the same 2 or3 attempts glide round on the fly and sail away on a wobbly toeside direction which when I felt it a little too wobbly turned back to heelside still on the fly, which in disbelief I cracked on my first attempt, after practicing this until my legs were tired I packed up for the day so excited about the next day I could hardly sleep.
The next day I screwed on the 101 long mast with the big wing and tried the same again, this time I found I was still making my turns on the fly, only the toeside riding became more wobbly as I was much higher up and faster, and more scarry with some nasty wipe outs at maximum mast height and maximum speed,many ouch moments but the main thing was I was going round corners both ways and turning back to healside, with unexpected ease(most of the time)

The short mast with the big(massive)633 wing should not be seen as just a tool to move onto faster learning, its a new and exciting way to explore the other experiences on offer that the longer cruiser masts can't offer so easily or so often, and when you jump from one size to the other as I do, you soon realize the two masts and wing sets have their own place and time on the water, expanding time and opportunity to grab more water time and enjoy more sensations that the other mast combination may fail to deliver at certain locations or water states.

And to finish this ramble I have to say the shorter mast big wing combination when used in wavy conditions is more fun although more challenging than the long mast that flies over the crests without the need to follow the wave shapes,but the short combination does tire you out more quickly as you need to work much harder, but the gains are much higher as you carve around humming a beach boys tune, however I only seem to know one tune and this is now a problem as my session time on the water has doubled since I moved on a stage, and my gps watch now records 20-30 miles covered on each decent session with a crazy number of turns completed compared to previous sessions.

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Re: Going from Short Mast to Long mast Advice

Postby eddiemorgs » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:43 am

I have learnt on a carbon intermediate 95cm jshapes foil and am struggling to read the overthinking going into the learning curve ( in this thread ) due to staged learning on short to longer masts .
There’s always the question going on ... “ when do I go to a longer one ? “ ... mate , just do it and I promise you will adjust .

The discussion about riding the board on the water being a key skill .... its almost irrelevant in my opinion .
You should already be able do that .
We are trying to make the bl...y thing fly !

So , get up on the board and get some board speed , perhaps a little downwind until it starts to fly and adjust its depth accordingly ... you don’t need to force it .
Then you are riding the foil , not the board ... forget the board already , its just a platform to a stand on .
With a longer mast you can tend to go a lot up the mast than a short one obviously ... because its longer ... so just make sure you keep it close to the water .
Yes , there will be a differnce in feel when you go to a longer mast ... you need to spend time on it and get used to it .
Every time I have ridden different gear it feels different and it always takes a while to dial it in ... long , short , big , small , heavier , lighter .... they are all different in feel

Agree with Foil above on different combos for different conditions but in this case Big Wally is still learning on the current gear he owns .

Big Wally , just get out there and practice , it will come as you get used to it .

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Re: Going from Short Mast to Long mast Advice

Postby 3InletsWindsports » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:38 am

If you get pulled over the board on takeoff then you are not pointing the board down wind enough on takeoff.
If this results in getting out of control speed then go smaller kite.
If this in turn means harder to get pulled up onto board then get longer lines.

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Re: Going from Short Mast to Long mast Advice

Postby slowboat » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:34 am

eddiemorgs wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:43 am
....

The discussion about riding the board on the water being a key skill .... its almost irrelevant in my opinion .



Then you are riding the foil , not the board ... forget the board already , its just a platform to a stand on .

...
I think this is a critical misperception for beginner foilers. The hurry to ride the foil and not the board is a mistake. When the board is on the surface, you are still "riding the foil" because the foil is still creating lift. Beginners have to learn to control that lift before they can progress and that learning occurs even when board is on the surface. So learning pitch control on the surface is safer and more efficient. Trying to learn pitch control in the air results in a lot of time and energy wasted due to all the crashes.


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