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Top speed of a Moses 633 SUP wing combo (the Onda)

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tomtom
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Re: Top speed of a Moses 633 SUP wing combo (the Onda)

Postby tomtom » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:42 pm

Some thoughts about 633 today. I dont now how valuable is my opinion but i NEVER understand claims about "If kite fly I can ride" because although im not very good foiler maybe 50h, im quite good kite flyer who almost never sink kite and i can definitely fly any kite in less wind than ride on foil.

BUT today - i was out in almost no wind on 12 north mono in wind about 5knts - 6knts. I have also FS Sonic 15 and I was unable to get it in water start without colapsing and bowtie. So basicaly sonic was unflyible without possibility to step back on solid ground. Im describing this as windspeed indicator only. I can keep mono in the air because its much nimbler and although it weight 3,2 kg it hang surprisingly well.

So long story short. I was comfortable powered and can ride on 633 with no volume board and 90kgs in wind where sonic 15 didnt fly without posibility to step back.

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Re: Top speed of a Moses 633 SUP wing combo (the Onda)

Postby grigorib » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:53 am

Pedro Marcos wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:47 pm
grigorib wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:01 pm
Peter, do you tend to associate larger/slower wings with beginner riders and pushing the race wings as a pinnacle of foil development for “experienced” riders?
Because nether Gunnar Biniasch nor Greg Drexler are beginners and they can ride either but both like large wings for freeride.
Ability to go slow easily is so obvious for large freeride wings that it makes them an natural choice for non-racers and I don’t think it’s correct to define the choice as “beginner vs. racer” because not everyone races, not everyone is trying to measure and compete in so called proficiency. As long as one’s riding is a pleasure to watch....
Well large/slower wings can be ridden by anyone: beginner, intermediate and advanced but race wings can only be ridden properly by advanced riders. Speed also means more risk. Because some advanced riders can have fun on "beginners" wings it doesnt mean those are not "beginner" anymore :)
I don’t think the race wings are so advanced to ride as you consider it. If it makes some people feel “advanced” by riding race wings I hope it works for you guys just don’t downplay comfort of Porsche over performance of NASCAR

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Re: Top speed of a Moses 633 SUP wing combo (the Onda)

Postby TomW » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:51 am

Yesterday it was 14-15 knots. Our normal 0,5 m chop and swell. It was a great session on my 9m Mono perfect power, sometimes a bit light.
I had put on the 550 after several sessions on the 590.
I gotta say the 550 wing is magic for me. I'm getting better at foiling, and I seem to be able to go slower and slower on it. It's nimbler than the 590, and the 590 has more lift causing me to breach more, so I find 590 is superior to 550 only in sub 12 knots or super flat water.
I'm wondering how 633 is in this respect.

One problem I have is that I have front foothook that probably is preventing me from shifting forward on the board, forcing me to bring back foot forward and subsequently have narrow and less stable stance.

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Re: Top speed of a Moses 633 SUP wing combo (the Onda)

Postby tomtom » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:35 am

I'm wondering how 633 is in this respect.

I bought 633 from Gunnar - after I saw this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4XUBfao4Ek in person. I was on water when it was filmed - on surfboard actually im on this video. - it was gusty offshore 15 and quite irregular waves. Gunnar cancel my foil lesson because of condition and go to shoot this review.

I cannot compare because lack of experience - but maybe you can make opinion from watching and knowing condition. But I think it is not a foil for somebody who is looking for speed and acceleration. It is not slow - it is stable, agile in turning fun and easy to ride and easy and intuitively pumpable. It has also excelent lowend. Im talking about kite size difference in low end. And because of early lift you dont need volume board

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Re: Top speed of a Moses 633 SUP wing combo (the Onda)

Postby Peter_Frank » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:37 am

grigorib wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:01 pm
Peter, do you tend to associate larger/slower wings with beginner riders and pushing the race wings as a pinnacle of foil development for “experienced” riders?
Because nether Gunnar Biniasch nor Greg Drexler are beginners and they can ride either but both like large wings for freeride.
Ability to go slow easily is so obvious for large freeride wings that it makes them an natural choice for non-racers and I don’t think it’s correct to define the choice as “beginner vs. racer” because not everyone races, not everyone is trying to measure and compete in so called proficiency. As long as one’s riding is a pleasure to watch....

Nope, I associate larger/slower wings as the best choice for beginners, and the holy grail for us freeriders/freestylers/waveriders in many conditions, and smaller faster but not race wings also part of the quiver as they got other advantages.

Race wings are for racers, but can be great fun for non racers too.
Not that many though, as eventually most find out they want to do one or the other and not both, but in marginal winds race wings can be great for a freerider, with a racefoilkite.

And these designs are a totally different category each to their own in terms of development.

So no, I dont see the race development as pushing the design nowadays anymore - two different niches each to their own R&D now.
For starters, the French race designers are the very reason we are all enjoying hydrofoiling now, as when they showed the classic raceboards were toast compared to a hydrofoil, it turned the world around in less than a year around 2012/13, and now everyone can enjoy hydrofoiling in so many niches, race/wave/freestyle/freeride/beginner/SUP/surf/long distance and so on :rollgrin:

My post was only about stall angle of attacks and how wings works in this respect :thumb:

8) Peter

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Re: Top speed of a Moses 633 SUP wing combo (the Onda)

Postby kiteingcolin1 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:11 pm

TomW wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:51 am

Yesterday it was 14-15 knots. Our normal 0,5 m chop and swell. It was a great session on my 9m Mono perfect power, sometimes a bit light.
I had put on the 550 after several sessions on the 590.
I gotta say the 550 wing is magic for me. I'm getting better at foiling, and I seem to be able to go slower and slower on it. It's nimbler than the 590, and the 590 has more lift causing me to breach more, so I find 590 is superior to 550 only in sub 12 knots or super flat water.
I'm wondering how 633 is in this respect.

One problem I have is that I have front foothook that probably is preventing me from shifting forward on the board, forcing me to bring back foot forward and subsequently have narrow and less stable stance.


Your thoughts on the 590 v the 550 wing are in the main the same as mine,
the 550 just feels so good and the 590, although its fast, feels a little numb, yes the stall speed is better but the lack of anything really special is noticeable, the lift is nothing special for me( now I have the 633) the 590 wing requires my footstraps to be positioned at least one hole back to help keep the ride height feeling correct, my 590 is now redundant.
The new kid on the block and the one that has given me a high level of excitement is my 633 wing combo, the downside compared to the 550 wing is firstly the outright speed, the 550 is very fast, the 633 is fast enough, and this fast enough quality of the 633 keeps the pace just right in so many areas, for example - toeside on rolling swell, the 550 can easily get out of control and send me on a scary death run, never once has this happened on the 633, it inspires big fat dollops of confidence, toeside upwind against sizeable swell has become exciting and fun instead of hard work and wipeouts.

Another difference has been the drop down in kite size, for example- today in gusty winds of 14-17mph around 12-14knts,my sailing buddy and myself decided to rig 6mtr kites, and he weighs over 25kg more than me, we both agreed that if we were sailing our Ttips we would be on our 12mtr kites, and another Moses rider on standard wings went out on a 10mtr.
on our 6mtr kites we were fully powered up once flying, and due to the massive punchy lift from the wing we were able to get flying on the first downloop or on the 2nd loop in a lull, what this enabled me to do was play around in the turns on the swell, often looping the kite twice to go round and then twice back to drive down the wave faces knowing the foil would not get out of control, only rewarding me with a controlled rush with each loop of what would be a kite size too small if the 550 wing was being used and then of course the extra speed and bigger kite would have made the experience more demanding and less enjoyable as I did not have to worry about being out of control, this feeling has to be experienced to understand the benefits to my learning curve, even my wife who watches me like a critical hawk, was full of praise today, It felt so good I am still buzzing.

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Re: Top speed of a Moses 633 SUP wing combo (the Onda)

Postby TomW » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:57 pm

Colin, Interesting. I'm about 80 hours in now. Losing count.
I don't ever lose speed control on the 550 anymore, and I can push the low end more. It's like riding a unicycle. I feel exactly when the wing us going to drop me and I can react with the kite or angle of sail to gain speed.
It's a 800€ investment for the Onda wing, fuse and stab, so it will have to wait till next year.

I agree there is polarisation. wings need big gaps in performance/attributes

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Re: Top speed of a Moses 633 SUP wing combo (the Onda)

Postby foilonfoil » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:23 am

cwood wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:42 pm
grigorib wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:01 pm
Peter, do you tend to associate larger/slower wings with beginner riders and pushing the race wings as a pinnacle of foil development for “experienced” riders?
Because nether Gunnar Biniasch nor Greg Drexler are beginners and they can ride either but both like large wings for freeride.
Ability to go slow easily is so obvious for large freeride wings that it makes them an natural choice for non-racers and I don’t think it’s correct to define the choice as “beginner vs. racer” because not everyone races, not everyone is trying to measure and compete in so called proficiency. As long as one’s riding is a pleasure to watch....
This is a great point! It's like in downhill skiing....race skis are not all that pleasant for all but the few recreational skiers who really want that edgy feel. For everyone else, even high performance non racers, there are much better all around choices for free skiing. Forcing yourself to ride race skis all the time is kidding oneself. The only thing I think we are still exploring on the race style foils is whether speed and high AR wings give us better boosting performance. Findings so far are yes but I am keen to try the 633.
The bigger the foil, the slower it is, and it's that simple. Buddy was experimenting with a windsurfer wing this week and in his words "sooo slow".

There are race wings which have performance and stability so its not a compromise. Normal cruising speed for me is 25mph/40kmh and I find going slow is frustrating as I like to go fast, far up wind over long distances. Performance/Race Wings more reflect the fact they are custom built with expensive materials with design characteristics optimized for upwind and downwind stability at speed. These characteristics make them absolutely undesirable for freestyle foiling such as being extremely stiff yawing.

If you like freestyle, get a big low/medium aspect ratio wing. If you like speed and upwind performance, get a smaller high aspect ratio wing, and beginners should definitely start with a big slow all round wing.

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Re: Top speed of a Moses 633 SUP wing combo (the Onda)

Postby Foil » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:42 am

comments above all align with mine and as tom says the gaps in wing size are better understood when the size gaps are big not tiny as the 550 V the 548.

I wish the Onga set up with the 633 was that cheap TomW, 800 euro? I paid around 1500 euro or £1350.

I have spent all this week sailing (since Sunday) out it 6mtr winds every day and covering an average of 25miles or 38km each day on a rolling sea at a well known british wave beach, and can now say my flying gybes on water with some waves that have been scary big have come on fine style,
and as a first for me - I sailed in those conditions without falling once in over two hours, rarely touching down on the 633 wing on my 101mast.

Even the Ttip and wave board guys had a word with me when I came in as they were impressed a foil could mix it with them, I put this improvement largely down to the help from the 633, and its top end limit (which was beaten yesterday by another 8kmh according to my gps watch.
The conditions are the same today, with even larger waves, and I plan to spend another day there and consolidate my learnings, (my poor 6mtr will be worn away)
I will be glad to get on holiday next week where I can occasionally swap my wings to have a good old blast at high speed as I love that feeling as well, my 550 wing will get some use and my unused race wings will get wet at last.
yesterday was by far the best water time I have ever had, along with some exciting scary moments, deciding if you could make the next wave on toeside or should you carve away, which at times the 633 wing was pushed hard to outrun the walls of water ready to punish me If I failed to either find the wave shoulder or outrun it or gybe out of the way, and always trying to spot the other wave users which I do find very hard whilst sailing a foil as I need to concentrate so much harder than when on a Ttip.
This sport Rocks!

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Re: Top speed of a Moses 633 SUP wing combo (the Onda)

Postby cwood » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:46 pm

Foil wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:42 am
comments above all align with mine and as tom says the gaps in wing size are better understood when the size gaps are big not tiny as the 550 V the 548.

I wish the Onga set up with the 633 was that cheap TomW, 800 euro? I paid around 1500 euro or £1350.

I have spent all this week sailing (since Sunday) out it 6mtr winds every day and covering an average of 25miles or 38km each day on a rolling sea at a well known british wave beach, and can now say my flying gybes on water with some waves that have been scary big have come on fine style,
and as a first for me - I sailed in those conditions without falling once in over two hours, rarely touching down on the 633 wing on my 101mast.

Even the Ttip and wave board guys had a word with me when I came in as they were impressed a foil could mix it with them, I put this improvement largely down to the help from the 633, and its top end limit (which was beaten yesterday by another 8kmh according to my gps watch.
The conditions are the same today, with even larger waves, and I plan to spend another day there and consolidate my learnings, (my poor 6mtr will be worn away)
I will be glad to get on holiday next week where I can occasionally swap my wings to have a good old blast at high speed as I love that feeling as well, my 550 wing will get some use and my unused race wings will get wet at last.
yesterday was by far the best water time I have ever had, along with some exciting scary moments, deciding if you could make the next wave on toeside or should you carve away, which at times the 633 wing was pushed hard to outrun the walls of water ready to punish me If I failed to either find the wave shoulder or outrun it or gybe out of the way, and always trying to spot the other wave users which I do find very hard whilst sailing a foil as I need to concentrate so much harder than when on a Ttip.
This sport Rocks!
I am a go fast and go long distance and boost guy... Had settled on the 558 as my fav and never touch the 550 (have it as backup). I ordered the race wings and the 633 set yesterday. You need contrasts to really feel the difference and have the variety.


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