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how long is too long?!

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neilhapgood
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how long is too long?!

Postby neilhapgood » Fri May 18, 2018 4:16 pm

in really light winds on a 10 or 12m tube kite at what length do lines become too long to help you get up and going? I currently use 30m lines but wondering if putting extra 5m extension on would help or if it becomes a hindrance at that length?

cheers

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Peter_Frank
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Re: how long is too long?!

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri May 18, 2018 5:56 pm

Good question - sorry to say I dont know…

Mostly because I have found 29-32 m to be a good length to get a lot of extra punch both on a not too big foilkite and a LEI kite, but still a comfy length for fun and carving too and does not feel "long" or a nuisance in any way :D

I think, but honestly dont know, that even longer will only help marginally and feel more wrong.

But only an assumption - I dont know, what do others say who are using different lengths ?

8) Peter

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Re: how long is too long?!

Postby norcom » Fri May 18, 2018 7:11 pm

I've tried up to 33m in ligh winds with thicker lines on 11m tube. I prefer 30m with race lines and 65cm bar in similar conditions. I didn't feel a huge difference in 30 to 33m in speed or power. In really light winds the margin is very small and it depends on how "light" you're referring to. What I do on my Peak3 and 30m race lines is silly stupid light but if it's light enough to use the 11m wave tube and my surf/sup foil, I prefer a little more speed with the 27m lines to work the kite and generate power over length. Cheap 6m extensions show up on some sites for $30, not overly expensive to try and find out.

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Re: how long is too long?!

Postby Foil » Fri May 18, 2018 7:32 pm

I have tried up to 40 MTR lines on an LEI, to see if there was any benefit in really light winds,
I found that above 28 MTR benefit gained from the longer power dive was negated by a number of issues, one of which was maintaining line tension, on the longer length if I stopped moving the kite for any reason, lack of line tension did at times let the kite tumble out of the sky, and slack lines prevented any kind of save,
I tried to use 2 line sets, one of 22mtr and another set at 30mtr, but after problems with muscle memory when looping the kite and hitting the water many times with the longer lines being used, along with many simple timing issues during transitions, I settled on 24mtr lines for all conditions.
The line sag is very noticeable on very long lines, this is partly responsible for a long delay in kite responce, a really frustrating kite behaviour in light winds with extra long lines.

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Re: how long is too long?!

Postby Ramkiter » Fri May 18, 2018 7:44 pm

norcom wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 7:11 pm
I've tried up to 33m in ligh winds with thicker lines on 11m tube. I prefer 30m with race lines and 65cm bar in similar conditions. I didn't feel a huge difference in 30 to 33m in speed or power. In really light winds the margin is very small and it depends on how "light" you're referring to. What I do on my Peak3 and 30m race lines is silly stupid light but if it's light enough to use the 11m wave tube and my surf/sup foil, I prefer a little more speed with the 27m lines to work the kite and generate power over length. Cheap 6m extensions show up on some sites for $30, not overly expensive to try and find out.
Just curious, are you using FS Peak3 on the water, if so what size and how is it please?

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Re: how long is too long?!

Postby plummet » Fri May 18, 2018 8:06 pm

I'm not sold on longer lines unless you need to get above a wind shadow. The extra line drag typically negates the extra power you might get.

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Re: how long is too long?!

Postby loco4viento » Fri May 18, 2018 9:13 pm

Ramkiter wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 7:44 pm
norcom wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 7:11 pm
I've tried up to 33m in ligh winds with thicker lines on 11m tube. I prefer 30m with race lines and 65cm bar in similar conditions. I didn't feel a huge difference in 30 to 33m in speed or power. In really light winds the margin is very small and it depends on how "light" you're referring to. What I do on my Peak3 and 30m race lines is silly stupid light but if it's light enough to use the 11m wave tube and my surf/sup foil, I prefer a little more speed with the 27m lines to work the kite and generate power over length. Cheap 6m extensions show up on some sites for $30, not overly expensive to try and find out.
Just curious, are you using FS Peak3 on the water, if so what size and how is it please?
Same question...and specifically please let us know how you feel about upwind performance of a peak 3...and if possible could you please give an example of other kites with similar upwind performance rather than just a “pretty good” or “not that bad” kind of answer. Greatly appreciated.

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Re: how long is too long?!

Postby slowboat » Fri May 18, 2018 9:14 pm

I think above 28-30 the returns start diminishing

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Re: how long is too long?!

Postby norcom » Fri May 18, 2018 10:58 pm

loco4viento wrote:
Ramkiter wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 7:44 pm
Just curious, are you using FS Peak3 on the water, if so what size and how is it please?
Same question...and specifically please let us know how you feel about upwind performance of a peak 3...and if possible could you please give an example of other kites with similar upwind performance rather than just a “pretty good” or “not that bad” kind of answer. Greatly appreciated.
Yes, I'm using the Peak3 12m on water and only on water. I've used it with a Moses 41cm mast and 548 wings, once, gusting to about 13mph in super shallow water. And I've used it over a handful of times now with the Takuma clone in 0-15mph. And yes, it drops at zero but flies in around 4mph. You can take my wind speeds with a grain of salt but trust me, whatever you think is “light” this kite will fly in less but you won’t get going.

The kite is incredibly stable in 4mph. It will sit at zenith in a breeze I can barely feel on my face without me touching the bar. But you can't get started this low. It's way too slow and there's not enough grunt to pull you up. With the Takuma I can get going in about 6-8mph. It's very hard to get going when it's this light. Once pulled up on the board I have to start pumping the foil to get moving and get the board out of the water all while getting the kite to pull me up and only then forward. If the wind drops, you start the struggle over.

I can't tell you about this kite upwind with a comparison. The conditions I use it in nothing else I have will fly or I wouldn't be rigging it. It's a weird feeling when you're pumping and struggling to get upwind on a foil. Below 8mph it’s hard to get upwind and this is with no current. When I was powered up I had no problem going upwind but I never have issues with any kite/foil in over 10mph where I ride. I have an 18m Zero, 18m Boost1, 17m R1v1 as my light wind kites and I don't use them anymore though I never foiled with them (once with the Zero 18 and I was EXTREMELY overpowered once up on Moses/107cm/548). They all need at least 10mph to be stable and if it's 10 it's probably blowing a little more where I can get my 11m Cabo flying on 30's with no issues.

When powered up, around 13mph+ the kite has plenty of depower but it flutters like CRAZY. I got caught a couple of times when the wind picked up but it wasn't unmanageable. The kite also has a great safety system. It just collapses when you put the side down on land as there's nothing to hold its shape. This is also a huge drawback on the water.

Launching is very easy. Relaunch after you get it wet is VERY hard under 8mph. The kite probably weighs twice as much wet and will not want to stay open. Once wet and flying it does feel a bit wonky until it dries. I was only able to relaunch it wet once in light wind so far.

I cannot stress this enough: this kite flies in barely any wind! Which was my primary concern when choosing this kite. Second was my lessons with the 17m R1v1. The recovery of a seventeen square meter bag full of water SUCKS. Even though the new breeds of lighter and bigger ram-airs looked tempting, I did not want to get anything bigger that has a chance to fill up. And it will fill up when you’re riding in what I’m describing. Because if you want to know about this kite you probably want to go looooooooow. ;)

Here’s the bad. This kite is BOOOORING. When it’s this light and you’re using big wings, all you can do is barely go back and forth. It’s BAT-SHIT-BORING! This kite does not drift. The huge SUP wings are super slow. But I can ride in conditions I usually SUP in now and when recovering it’s easy to pack.

I have a GoFoil coming with Iwa and Maliko 200 wings. I’m going to try to kite with them and see how much lower I can go. I was also thinking of using this kite to get upwind on the GoFoil and do some SUP downwinders. That’s just me dreaming though. :) I haven’t seen anyone try this but it should be possible. Maybe I could get going even lower as the Iwa is supposed to pump up better than the Takuma.

If you want performance, upwind, boosting DO NOT BUY THIS KITE. If you're a bit kite crazy and want to go out with big wings, boards and be bored but wet. This is the kite for you.

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Re: how long is too long?!

Postby edt » Sat May 19, 2018 2:31 am

I think the best answer is just go try it. People are always asking in this forum about what's the "right" line length. Wouldn't it suck if you took the advice of some random here on the forum who told you "such and such length is the longest never go above it" and only figured out years later that you actually liked longer lines?


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