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Marginal wind kites ?

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:14 pm

IMO windrange doesnt matter much with these kites, when only for marginal wind and freestyle/freeride :wink:

This is why too big is a no no, as if they start about the same agility is the word, unless the bigger ones gives you loads in terms of STARTING earlier of course, which some seem to do.

Agree with Regis, that it seems the single skins dont hold up in this very task of marginal winds - as there are better tools apparently.

Eventhough they seem to work quite okay, and really easy yes :D

8) PF

Regis-de-giens
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foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:46 pm

During the lowest ride I did with my former Pulsion15m, I was limit at the waterstart AND at planning at 90 degree of the wind,:
- I needed a 15m2 to slowly get me out of the water, using the powerfull loop of moderate aspect ratio
- I had to work the kite a minimum (but gently to keep a good flight of the kite) ;
=> hard to describe the feeling at that moment but I am convinced that I needed the complete surface area of a grunty 15m2 at that moment, combined with a quite good angle of traction (that a medium/high AR double skin provides).
=> my Pulsion 12m2 would have had to be worked more radically to increase pull, while degrading the flight and the upwind angle ... leading to the end of planning (experimented)

I describe this to say that I feel I was at the correct balance of necessary antinomic kite features. And witness that 15 m2 is a minimum for the ultimate kite above 60 kg.

kuit
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby kuit » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:21 am

With my Kitech FRS 12m / 28m lines I can ride from around 5 - 5.5 knts (I am 83kg). Have to loop the kite several times to get on the foil.

This kite is super stable. Have around 60 sessions with it now and, believe me or not, never had to swim!

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:51 am

Okay, it seems that the single skins works fine, but not the same power and smooth performance as some of the other contenders:

Racekites in the light versions - but they turn a bit slow because of higher AR usually, and seem to "fold" easier.
Concept Air Pulsion light version.
Aeros Navy2 Ultralight version.
Aeros new prototype coming up ?
Ozone Hyperlink UltraLight, max size 12 m2 though.
Kitech FreeRS.
Pansh Aurora 2 Ultralight ? - if true it is heavier than the Hyperlink in std cloth, it is not a true marginal wind kite...
Flysurfer soul, a contender too or not as light ?



Regarding how low you can go, numbers are only a rough estimate and not really useable - so it is experience and comparisons neck and neck that matters :-)

If the 18-19-21 m2 kites can go a tad earlier, but at a cost in terms of agility - one must decide what is preferred.

I dont read any experience with the Aeros Navy2 kites ???

8) Peter

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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby tomtom » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:49 pm

Soul is very light. It is exceptionally good kite.

Regis-de-giens
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Style: 62 kg , light wind
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foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:59 pm

Which kite you compare the soul weight to ? Seems to flight well but not so light .

Peter,
To fit your initial question, maybe we could try to start from your list and testers could put a kind of order/rating to their minimum wind ability (Without mentiong wind values , I agree, it is non sense at this low wind level, too dependant of rider weight, site, measure method and altitude ...)
By capitalizing the differents back-to-back by same rider we could dream to get a kind of ordering.

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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Pedro Marcos » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:23 pm

Today i had a good experience regarding marginal wind:

It was 4-5 knots measured on the beach, and i went out with a R1V2 19m in 17m lines having to be carefull in manouvers but i could say "confortable", not having to fight the kite in any way. At the beach there was:

- LEIs -> Ocean Rodeo Flites, Storms, etc - None could waterstart, they could barely fly.
- Foils:

R1V2 15m on 25m lines -> could not waterstart
Chrono V2 "normal" 18m on 25m lines -> Could not stay in the air, always fighting with the kite
Kitetech RS 12m on 25m lines -> Could not waterstart

So yes, in this wind there is no substitute to kite size!

Then the wind pickup to 7-8 knots and almost everyone could waterstart, the LEIs were still struggling abit and i wen to change my lines to 13m because to see if i could go, and i could no problem.

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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby haare » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:05 am

For low light I use sonic 2 18m. I kite in small lake. The bigger the kite the better it handles lulls. My 12m drops like a rock when the wind goes below 2m. However same type of kite with same cloth has no problem when it is 18m in size. When you are foiling lulls drop you down to the water surface far easier with small kite. With the big kite lulls are easily handled. You just pull the bar a little and continue. If you do the same with the small kite it will stall far easier.

I can also jump to 8-9m with 18m sonic in 6-8 knots. With 12m kite i could not do even backrolls in same conditions because i would need to work the kite always after it to get back on foiling...

For ultimate low wind I would image light race kites like PL aero UL 20m or R1V2 19m would be ideal. But the difference in low end comes with a cost (for example compared to 13m race kite). Slow turning kites and much lower high end. So it depends what you want to do. If you want to ride strapless freestyle you can get away with quite small kite but if you want to do jumps you really benefit from bigger kite. Also in gusty low wind conditions you really benefit from the bigger slower kite which can store more momentum energy which you can use to survive lulls.

For me ideal and not so ideal wind ranges are:
Diablo 6m 8-15m/s (6-20m/s)
Diablo 8m 7m/s - 12m/s (5-15m/s)
Sonic 2 11m 6-10m m/s (4.5 - 12m/s)
Sonic 2 13m 5-8 m/s (4-10m/s)
Elf Joker 8 15m 4.5-7 m/s (3.5-9 m/s)
sonic 2 18m 4-6 m/s (3-8 m/s)

Of course these these numbers are just my estimates. So people say they can foil in 4 knots. I think their 4 knots are more like my 5-6 knots. Especially if they use similar size kite and same line length. The point here I am trying to make is that if in your local spot wind rarely goes below 4m/s, you will be happier with 13m sized kite. Because you benefit from the high end range it can offer. However if you live in a place where wind rarely is over 6m/s you really want the biggest race foil they make.

So as you can see the range is just amazing with small foils. You can kite in almost all conditions that TT riders kite with 6m foil kite. With big foil kites range is far smaller. However where I live I almost always use 18m kite. Because most often our wind is in the range 4-6m/s. I could try to go out with 13m in these conditions. But when it would drop for a moment to 1,5m/s it would drop to the water and my session would end swimming. In these same conditions I can keep 18m in the air.

Lines help also. Either smaller kite with long lines to help the low end. Or bigger kite with short lines to help the high end. Where I live there are no sand beaches. So we have to use short lines to be able to launch from shallow water.

gbrungra
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby gbrungra » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:42 pm

I've been thinking about how hard it is to compare the marginal wind performance of different kites.

If we could design the perfect comparison event, what would it look like?

Location: somewhere with reliably marginal winds. San Diego's mission bay (sail bay) comes to mind, since that's where I kite.

Kites: all the usually suspects, both LEI and foil, in all available (larger) sizes, and fabrics.

Riders: a statistically significant sample of riders (10? 20? 30?), with varying degrees of experience.

Boards: each rider brings their own board/foil, just to control for the variables, and make sure the kite is the only unfamiliar equipment?

Format: let all the riders try all the kites for a few days, and then start a competition. Riders compete to kite in lightest possible winds, using whatever kites they think will give them their best shot to win. So riders are incentivized to try to pick the best light wind kite for them, after trying them all, back-to-back for a few days.

Thoughts?

Regis-de-giens
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Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
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Re: Marginal wind kites ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:24 pm

Indoor with a big fan like sone windsurf shows years ago.. you could reduce the rpm at each run ... the last on the water wins ! :lol: :lol:


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