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Tips for learning to ride toeside

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tegirinenashi
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Re: Tips for learning to ride toeside

Postby tegirinenashi » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:12 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:51 pm

Whereas on a hydrofoil he will for starters not be able to point very high toeside, so if too much kite it is impossible IMO, and overall, a smaller well chosen size is so much better.
Point very high, you mean upwind? Why is this important? My intuition is that one can develop toeside riding skills in small increments, as opposed to a big leap of faith. Specifically, turning on the water while maintaining center of gravity over the mast combined with precision kite turn timing is challenging enough by itself to practice it before anything else. Then, going on the water toeside builds up your comfort with awkward body orientation. After some time, one starts feeling the lift on the wing and progresses to flying with frequent touchdowns. Only then, after one can ride toeside without fear of falling, the upwind angle becomes the next goal.

One more thing: with big kite I can ride slower than with small kite. And slower ride is helpful for those of us who learn at slower pace.
Last edited by tegirinenashi on Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tips for learning to ride toeside

Postby TomW » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:15 pm

Don't push upwind hard toeside at first. Nashi is correct

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Re: Tips for learning to ride toeside

Postby RichR2 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:42 pm

Once again thanks for all the responses, so useful. I had a session today and tried easing myself into toeside from riding downwind heelside and turning a little more into toeside downwind. I found this easier than turning to go from reach to reach as i could start to get used to the new body orientation without having to work so much against the pull of the kite. I can ride toeside without thinking on a tt but like everything on a foil, it's like learning from scratch again.

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Re: Tips for learning to ride toeside

Postby jakemoore » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:01 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNuI_qeDDkE

I like these tutorials. I think the touchdown carve to toe is a good step because it is so easy to slack the lines flying. I'm not sure I could waterstart into toeside as suggested earlier but going from water to foiling toeside is in reach.

I like to use counter steering to help me lean especially riding toeside. I'm pointing the board tip more heel side (yaw) to make myself lean toeside (roll). I'm still at a stage where I really have to think things through so is possible this is not the best advise but it works for me.

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Re: Tips for learning to ride toeside

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:04 am

tegirinenashi wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:12 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:51 pm

Whereas on a hydrofoil he will for starters not be able to point very high toeside, so if too much kite it is impossible IMO, and overall, a smaller well chosen size is so much better.
Point very high, you mean upwind? Why is this important? My intuition is that one can develop toeside riding skills in small increments, as opposed to a big leap of faith. Specifically, turning on the water while maintaining center of gravity over the mast combined with precision kite turn timing is challenging enough by itself to practice it before anything else. Then, going on the water toeside builds up your comfort with awkward body orientation. After some time, one starts feeling the lift on the wing and progresses to flying with frequent touchdowns. Only then, after one can ride toeside without fear of falling, the upwind angle becomes the next goal.

One more thing: with big kite I can ride slower than with small kite. And slower ride is helpful for those of us who learn at slower pace.

When learning and you are often quite powered, you will be toast if you point too low toeside, as you will accelerate like a rocket launch when going halfwind and end in a huge crash, so extremely important to point upwind so your speed is in control, to compensate for your other errors when learning toeside :naughty:

Later when you have learned you can control things on a faster beam reach yes, but when learning it will end in a disaster most often with extreme speed and no control whatsoever on the new toeside tack :o

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Re: Tips for learning to ride toeside

Postby Kamikuza » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:01 pm

jakemoore wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:01 pm
I think the touchdown carve to toe is a good step
I think I might have said this before, but I only did a couple of those and they were unsuccessful. I quickly discovered that if you just keep carving upwind until you're almost at a stop and about to stall, you can redirect the kite to the other side and follow the kite with the board, and get around to toe side easy.

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Re: Tips for learning to ride toeside

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:29 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:01 pm
jakemoore wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:01 pm
I think the touchdown carve to toe is a good step
I think I might have said this before, but I only did a couple of those and they were unsuccessful. I quickly discovered that if you just keep carving upwind until you're almost at a stop and about to stall, you can redirect the kite to the other side and follow the kite with the board, and get around to toe side easy.

+1 here, touchdowns got very little or nothing to do with riding toeside, so I would not recommend this either.

If you touchdown you have to be very powered, to get up foiling again toeside, A LOT more difficult.

Besides the timing got nothing to do with the timing for carving to toeside (flying), so I dont see any reason at all to touch down, on the contrary, try to avoid it in every way.

Only if you are learning to jibe, it makes a lot of sense to do a touchdown while switching feet, many times, till you can do it and then proceed to practise flying.
But for carving to toeside, dont touch down :wink:

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Re: Tips for learning to ride toeside

Postby junebug » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:49 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:41 am
Keep the kite high so it wont run away with you even when going lower toeside than heelside (we all do that, go lower and less efficent)
I think this is the best advice in this thread. When learning the jibe to toeside, you will ride downwind a lot at first. With the kite low, the lack of tension in the lines will cause it to end up in the drink. With the kite high, there is more time to get the turn around so you establish tension in the lines.

I agree that it is harder to learn with a downloop when powered because of the burst of speed, but when underpowered, a downloop can be really useful to keep the kite in the air through the turn. Just be sure to initiate the downloop with the kite high for your first attempts.

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Re: Tips for learning to ride toeside

Postby tegirinenashi » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:53 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:04 am


When learning and you are often quite powered, you will be toast if you point too low toeside, as you will accelerate like a rocket launch when going halfwind and end in a huge crash, so extremely important to point upwind so your speed is in control, to compensate for your other errors when learning toeside :naughty:
Contrary to my expectations, I experienced very few overpowered accelerations running out of control. I had it a lot more on twintip and surfboard before. Maybe I'm taking it too slow, but keep in mind: not everybody here is in their 30s, and those foil sharp edges demand some respect.

It is nice to be able to perform fast flying carve on your very first attempt, but let be realistic: most people won't. What I'm saying is that there are intermediate steps which are easier to master than one huge leap. Turning on the water is easier, because the speed is much lower. With lower speed I have to worry more about stalling than uncontrolled runs. Then, gradually increasing the speed I can make most of the turn flying, perhaps with a touchdown.

Take it as "grandfather's course to hydrofoil", but building experience doesn't necessarily require hard punch in the face.

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Re: Tips for learning to ride toeside

Postby TomW » Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:22 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:01 pm
jakemoore wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:01 pm
I think the touchdown carve to toe is a good step
I think I might have said this before, but I only did a couple of those and they were unsuccessful. I quickly discovered that if you just keep carving upwind until you're almost at a stop and about to stall, you can redirect the kite to the other side and follow the kite with the board, and get around to toe side easy.
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