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Are you thinking about becoming a foiler?

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cwood
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Re: Are you thinking about becoming a foiler?

Postby cwood » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:43 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:47 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:44 pm
Kamikuza wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:59 am
Masts are one of the cheapest parts of the foil.

I don't know anyone who's had lessons. I know plenty of foilers though.

No, they are the most expensive part of a carbon foil.

Only if aluminum foils, they are cheap, so depends what new foilers get, which can be both, quite evenly distributed here.

8) PF
People buying carbon foils here aren't beginners, and are interested in racing only. I don't know if that's a worldwide trend.
Can't agree with this statement. Carbon is much nicer for learning due to weight, especially for women. The Slingshot hoverglide is great but man is it heavy in full length form. Almost unmanageable in anything but perfect launch and land conditions.

Also, anyone that is seriously into boosting and big air are all carbon....its not just for racing, its about the optimal performance and quality of ride. Night and day. The only thing carbon does not win on is cost and durability against other hard surfaces.

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Kamikuza
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Re: Are you thinking about becoming a foiler?

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:06 pm

cwood wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:43 am
Kamikuza wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:47 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:44 pm
No, they are the most expensive part of a carbon foil.

Only if aluminum foils, they are cheap, so depends what new foilers get, which can be both, quite evenly distributed here.

8) PF
People buying carbon foils here aren't beginners, and are interested in racing only. I don't know if that's a worldwide trend.
Can't agree with this statement. Carbon is much nicer for learning due to weight, especially for women. The Slingshot hoverglide is great but man is it heavy in full length form. Almost unmanageable in anything but perfect launch and land conditions.

Also, anyone that is seriously into boosting and big air are all carbon....its not just for racing, its about the optimal performance and quality of ride. Night and day. The only thing carbon does not win on is cost and durability against other hard surfaces.
Here, where I live, the only newbies who went straight to carbon were the hard-core racers. They also went straight to foil kites and WHOO what carnage there was! A few of the less hard-core racers and all the beginners are (still) on aluminum foils -- Cabrinha, Naish, Axis, LF, Alpine.

Back in my hometown, of the people I've seen foiling, there's one guy on a production carbon foil, one on custom build, a couple on total home builds and everyone else is on aluminum.

It's an observation, not a statement :)

Here (and back home), we're far away from the European market, and even the American ones are expensive: approx US$1,600 just for the Hoverglide foil, $1,300 for the Dwarfcraft board. The 2018 Ghost Whisperer 111 foil is $3,800. So a carbon foil and Hypermiler set up would be almost $6,000...!

Oh just noticed -- that 111 GW is listed as 3.2 kg. My Axis aluminum 820mm SUP foil is 4.9kg and the previous aluminum kite foil was 4kg. There's not a lot in the kite foils there: 800g less weight for $2,000 more :o

The Hoverglide is apparently 5.2kg, but the weight is all clumped down at the bottom of the mast. My wing is light so the weight is more spread out, and the feeling is very different.

Anyway...ride 'em if you got 'em!

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Re: Are you thinking about becoming a foiler?

Postby Greenturtle » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:46 pm

Peert wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:17 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:44 pm
Kamikuza wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:59 am
Masts are one of the cheapest parts of the foil.

I don't know anyone who's had lessons. I know plenty of foilers though.

No, they are the most expensive part of a carbon foil.

Only if aluminum foils, they are cheap, so depends what new foilers get, which can be both, quite evenly distributed here.

8) PF
This made me think. Would it be possible to manufacture carbon masts by an extrusion process? (Like how carbon rods and alu masts are made) Would this potentially be a cheaper production process?
Sure why not. And on this note, why not fiberglass, I dont see any manufacturer offering that ?!.
I expect that the price of carbon masts will drop eventually as many other things made from carbon have. Its really not a very complicated item to produce comparatively.

cwood
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Re: Are you thinking about becoming a foiler?

Postby cwood » Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:57 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:06 pm
cwood wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:43 am
Kamikuza wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:47 pm

People buying carbon foils here aren't beginners, and are interested in racing only. I don't know if that's a worldwide trend.
Can't agree with this statement. Carbon is much nicer for learning due to weight, especially for women. The Slingshot hoverglide is great but man is it heavy in full length form. Almost unmanageable in anything but perfect launch and land conditions.

Also, anyone that is seriously into boosting and big air are all carbon....its not just for racing, its about the optimal performance and quality of ride. Night and day. The only thing carbon does not win on is cost and durability against other hard surfaces.
Here, where I live, the only newbies who went straight to carbon were the hard-core racers. They also went straight to foil kites and WHOO what carnage there was! A few of the less hard-core racers and all the beginners are (still) on aluminum foils -- Cabrinha, Naish, Axis, LF, Alpine.

Back in my hometown, of the people I've seen foiling, there's one guy on a production carbon foil, one on custom build, a couple on total home builds and everyone else is on aluminum.

It's an observation, not a statement :)

Here (and back home), we're far away from the European market, and even the American ones are expensive: approx US$1,600 just for the Hoverglide foil, $1,300 for the Dwarfcraft board. The 2018 Ghost Whisperer 111 foil is $3,800. So a carbon foil and Hypermiler set up would be almost $6,000...!

Oh just noticed -- that 111 GW is listed as 3.2 kg. My Axis aluminum 820mm SUP foil is 4.9kg and the previous aluminum kite foil was 4kg. There's not a lot in the kite foils there: 800g less weight for $2,000 more :o

The Hoverglide is apparently 5.2kg, but the weight is all clumped down at the bottom of the mast. My wing is light so the weight is more spread out, and the feeling is very different.

Anyway...ride 'em if you got 'em!
All good points. I would say we are 50 50 here carbon to Aluminum, last holiday monday there was almost as many foilers as tt on the water so it has really picked up.

I found the hoverglide to be actually quite smooth when riding, but I have tried a Nobile twice now and it felt broken it was so roungh. Rider (dealer) said it was normal. Felt like I was dragging a 50 foot knotted rope behind. I handed him my Moses, which he rode and he was dumbfounded. They are now a dealer. His prior opinion was that nobody would spend on carbon. If you don't want the burden of the higher cost of carbon....don't ride a well prepped one.

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Re: Are you thinking about becoming a foiler?

Postby grigorib » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:46 pm

I don't think there's a valid reason why aluminum foil wouldn't be smooth to ride. Heavier to carry and faster to sink foil down when in water but it can ride just as fine as carbon. I started with carbon MHL Lift because there were no aluminum foils back then and I had fun on mine. Learning on 90cm mast was a bit challenging but I did it too. And yes, Moses is so smooth to ride :)

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Re: Are you thinking about becoming a foiler?

Postby cwood » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:55 am

grigorib wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:46 pm
I don't think there's a valid reason why aluminum foil wouldn't be smooth to ride. Heavier to carry and faster to sink foil down when in water but it can ride just as fine as carbon. I started with carbon MHL Lift because there were no aluminum foils back then and I had fun on mine. Learning on 90cm mast was a bit challenging but I did it too. And yes, Moses is so smooth to ride :)
You are correct that there is no reason a quality aluminum foil can't be relatively smooth. Issue I see with some of them is the materials of the wings are not as stiff, fit and union between parts are more crude and all of it can introduce turbulence and drag. Generally with the carbon rigs there is more attention to fit and the material is uniformly stiff vs a stiff aluminum mast and a g10 or other composite material wing.

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Re: Are you thinking about becoming a foiler?

Postby jumptheshark » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:28 am

It’s not what you ride, it’s how you ride it.

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Kamikuza
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Re: Are you thinking about becoming a foiler?

Postby Kamikuza » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:23 am

cwood wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:57 pm
All good points. I would say we are 50 50 here carbon to Aluminum, last holiday monday there was almost as many foilers as tt on the water so it has really picked up.

I found the hoverglide to be actually quite smooth when riding, but I have tried a Nobile twice now and it felt broken it was so roungh. Rider (dealer) said it was normal. Felt like I was dragging a 50 foot knotted rope behind. I handed him my Moses, which he rode and he was dumbfounded. They are now a dealer. His prior opinion was that nobody would spend on carbon. If you don't want the burden of the higher cost of carbon....don't ride a well prepped one.
Bad designs are bad. The new Naish kite foil feels the same as your knotted rope -- the tail was draggy. The Alpine and the Axis are the slickest of the ones I've used. I do wonder how much different a carbon foil would be ...

No reason fit and finish can't be excellent, or the wings be carbon. But that adds to the cost, which is why people choose aluminum generally, I think. Again for me, it was availability, what I could demo, and price.


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