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F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

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foilholio
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:11 am

That is how it works. Certainly worth a try.

lander
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby lander » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:20 am

I played with it a bit, but my conclusion was, that the kite need to be designed for this feature. Otherwice the barpressure got too high and turning speed too slow. So I ended up buying the Fone Diablo. It is a very great kite.

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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby joriws » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:55 am

holden wrote:@joriws: do i get it right? your drawing discribes the situation when the new line kicks in and pulled down c and b. but in reality the tension on the z is less, so instead b and c are not effected, but z is pulled in.
Well I just tried to follow up the rules like strings only relay pull. And on backline <-> Z we have a flow friction ring meaning "diablo line" can freely move until engaged. So without aerodynamic forces affecting the airfoil should be like drawn previously.

Foilholio reports that aerodynamic forces (lift across the wing chord) are able to pull B & C from kiteside overcome pull of Z & friction of ring so I adjusted the picture a bit. I just selected that on last 10cm of bar pull you get 5cm of Z-line loose. I also added some tension/movement to B & C. Now AoA and camber is increased.
diablo_ver2_vs_fs_mixer.png

holden
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby holden » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:13 am

@joriws: thanks for the new drawing.

@lander: hehe, nice approach. which kite did you use for the mod?

foilholio
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:50 pm

lander wrote:I played with it a bit, but my conclusion was, that the kite need to be designed for this feature. Otherwice the barpressure got too high and turning speed too slow. So I ended up buying the Fone Diablo. It is a very great kite.
Wow lander sounding like a pile of BS right there. You had a play with this? before or after I started discussing it? and you decided to run out and buy a diablo? I wont disagree that you could design a kite to work better with this. But it's a pretty simple mixer mod that will work with ANY depower foil. In the same way any fixed bridle foil can be made into a depower foil, they are adaptable. Sure bar pressure is higher because of it and the diablo will have the same problem. Turning slower, not what I observed, faster in fact, the laws of physics say it should turn faster. Youre enacting more AoA camber change for less bar throw will always equal faster turning. You sound like someone with more than just the vested interested of "I ran out and bought X brands kite". Pretty sad if an Fone representative would hop on here type what you just did.

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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby joriws » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:03 pm

foilholio wrote:Pulley on the frontside of C SPL is not going to achieve this same effect. UDS is just a reference point. I believe that was the first mixer. Shortly after all manner of pulley combinations were being tried. I remember seeing a 10 or so pulley mixer.
I was thinking stopper ball to stop C-spl rolling though C-pulley. Because I was thinking that pull of B+C (because airfoil lift) via "diablo line" cannot pull Z loose. But like said it would reduce camber and not add AoA because Z is not pulled more than previously. So I agree that Z-must be pulled for the desired effect / gain.

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davesails7
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby davesails7 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:18 pm

Hmmm, I'm still a bit confused from the picture, but I guess I just need to see it in person.

So what are the ratios with and without the added Diablo line engaged?

Is this right for rear line pull to bridle pull:
Diablo line loose, normal operation: C is 2:1 and Z is 1:1

Then when Diablo line is engaged: C is 1:1 and Z is 1:2?

foilholio
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:25 pm

Ratio becomes Z8engaged Z4normal, C2, B1. Z ratio doubles and BC should stay the same.

Joriws an alternate would be to just have a longer CSPL become part of Z main. You could disengage it with a stopper knot on the frontside of the new pulley. You could also disengage after more sheeting with a stopper on the backside. Or you could leave it permanent active with no stoppers, wonder how that would work?

Im also going to try combine a more stable mixer with this. Having both would be awesome.

kitexpert
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby kitexpert » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:32 am

"Ratio becomes Z8engaged Z4normal, C2, B1. Z ratio doubles and BC should stay the same."

Hmm.. Too unclear and not right.

Let's see what really happens for the last 10cm of the bar movement, at similar situation to joriws's pictures.

1. Without D-line: C is pulled 5cm and Z is pulled 10cm. Combined 15cm.

Is it possible that these are pulled less with D-line? No, because new line is an addition to original pulleysystem, (and straight line to brakes) which still do their work.

2. With D-line: C and Z are pulled both 10cm (if forces are the same) and (theoretically) 0cm and 20cm (or vice versa) if forces are completely unbalanced. Combined 20cm.

So, with Diablo-line additional 5 cm pull is achieved for the last 10cm of the bar movement. This divides some way between C and Z - more to Z since more lift at C pulls Z via ring.

For example: If final 10cm sheeting in with D-line pulls C 6cm (plus 1cm), it then pulls Z 14cm (plus 4cm). Since C is pulled more than original system could do, original C pulleyline goes slack. This means a lot more bar pressure for last 10cm of the bar movement. A lot more.

5cm more pull sounds reasonable, and when most of it goes to brakes even more so. Camber increases, which is good at high AoA's, kinda anti-backstall. If just bar pressure does not become too heavy?

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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:34 am

You are correct Z ratio should be 6 or less not 8. Forgot to include that the C pulley moves down. I haven't seen the C pulley line go slack, but the pressure got pretty strong so it may have. I might try run the Diablo to the front line or A main so it's 8 to 1 with no possibility of C going direct to the bar.


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