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F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

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foilholio
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:49 pm

The effect on reversing the kite is most likely how it is setup. Did you see when it engages on the joker6? I think I set mine to engage at all even. I will have another go with it and try some different settings. It does open the possibility to have 2 different mixer effects combined, as you described.

holden
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby holden » Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:27 pm

the diablo line engages when the kite is pretty powered already on the joker6. maybe when the line kicks in on neutral it is too radical. let me know what setting works best for you.

h.

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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:52 am

I played with a WAC line on the only kite I still have one on. I think the effect at the kite the diablo line produces is much the same as a WAC line. The WAC line requires more sheeting as it doesn't increase the throw of Z, it just stops AB changing, so C and Z move more as a ratio. The ratio for WAC would be 0:2:6 and diablo something less than 1:2:6. I think the WAC has lighter bar pressure, is obviously simpler as it doesn't require a pulley, it pulls on A so should speed turning and it has no negative effect on reverse flying in fact I think it improves it.

borist
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby borist » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:18 am

foilholio wrote:I played with a WAC line on the only kite I still have one on. I think the effect at the kite the diablo line produces is much the same as a WAC line. The WAC line requires more sheeting as it doesn't increase the throw of Z, it just stops AB changing, so C and Z move more as a ratio. The ratio for WAC would be 0:2:6 and diablo something less than 1:2:6. I think the WAC has lighter bar pressure, is obviously simpler as it doesn't require a pulley, it pulls on A so should speed turning and it has no negative effect on reverse flying in fact I think it improves it.
Foilholio, which set up is this?
thx

foilholio
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:47 am

Older FS kites had a hard soft steering line, it was originally called a WAC when it was first installed on the warrior. Function is to pull on A or bind AB together at some point sheeting in but to not limit B depowering. Almost no one, me included, used the hard settings which is where it actually engages and makes the mixer 621. Until I had used the diablo line and seen the benefits I hadn't actually thought about the WAC in that way. Flysurfer have sort of dumb down its image into something that just changes bar pressure, when in actual fact it does other things entirely. It was always hinted to have performance benefits, but never explicitly and nobody, particularly foil kiters, really likes a heavier bar in and of itself.
Last edited by foilholio on Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

sparkin_larkin
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby sparkin_larkin » Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:26 pm

Good point. How could it change the bar pressure without changing the wing? More pressure decrease upwind ability and increase turning speed? Too bad foilzone is gone probably some info there. Yeah so sad :(

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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby joriws » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:22 am

F-One itself calls "diablo line" as Turbo in manual..
diablo_turbo_line.png
diablo_turbo_line.png (111.83 KiB) Viewed 691 times

foilholio
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:27 pm

I think I will stick with calling it a diablo line considering a wac does much the same thing with no ring and less line, I don't think the diablo line will catch on. Crazy of all the unusual things FS has done like jetflaps, blow outs, the wac actually seems useful. Will be funny to see it implemented on FS kites again. Maybe a fixed length bridle line with an adjustable knot on B main would be the most efficient implementation , similar to the P3.

As to that manual, not testing with Z??, looping the bridles to account for shrink in the mixer? wtf. Crazy.

foilholio
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Thu May 05, 2016 6:46 am

So I did a bit of a comparison WAC vs diablo line and something new, combining them both. Just flying the kite around no riding. 5 to 15knots .

WAC line has slightly more bar pressure, relaunch is great I think better than normal, turning is tighter, kite cambers more and has more lift, kite back stalls better, reverse landing is easier with the kite having a more laid down profile with less pull on the ground. Overall I think I prefer this to the diablo line.

Diablo line has lighter bar, more responsive turning but wider arc, less camber less lift, much worse relaunch than normal, harder to backstall. It's possible the harder backstall could give the perception this is better for downwind, but the camber performance aspect is significantly better on the WAC and should be better with better bar control.

Combined :-) Something like a kite on steroids. Really high bar pressure, really cambered, very high lift, responsive tight turns, ok relaunch not as bad as a diablo line alone. 12 knots my 6m was pulling very hard. I can definitely see people picking this option. If you just need extra lift to get you up on your hydrofoil this will do it.

Back to the diablo line I don't think there is any way it could not negatively affect reversing/relaunch. It puts CZ linked on a pulley so the balance point is going to be somewhere in the middle. Because of that the tow point will never be able to move close or onto Z maximizing lift backwards. But! If the kite was designed with C being further back and to a lesser extent but also Z as well the middle point would be further back too and reversing would be better.

With the WAC line I think B being further back and maybe C it will work better as well.

foilholio
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Re: F1 Diablo Camber adjustment

Postby foilholio » Thu May 05, 2016 6:49 am

I tested the WAC and Diablo line combined on water. It gives the kite heaps of pull and heaps of bar pressure. Because of that it's extremely hard to backstall. Take off for jumping is epic indeed, but glide is not so great. Upwind was not really negatively affected how I had it setup with everything engaging at ABCZ even. The bar pressure was truly out of this world, my arms ended up having trouble steering the kite. I had a rest and removed the Diablo line. I quite like the WAC only. Combining them the loss of glide and bar pressure is too much for me. It could definitely be an option for guys that need a lightwind boost to get on the plane like with a hydrofoil, the pull is just epic. But for me I think WAC is enough. I also prefer the WAC over the Diablo line. The benefits I think I listed above. It really works well with the pyscho4 which has a very small gap from becoming flat and then stalling, even less if it isn't tuned right. The WAC (or the diablo line) just lowers the stall speed, it's quite a nice effect. The kite is much the same upwind, glide etc, but when you sheet into the range you normally only use to just get a bit more grunt, extra grunt is there. Also the turning is nicer as well.

I would really love to know how flysurfer goes about setting ABCZ even on the kite, as it seems a critical point to how the kites fly. I might do some measuring to see if it's a specific angle on the wing.


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