Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

The Pansh A15, an A18 review

For all foil kite riders


Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Mon May 22, 2017 10:38 am

foilholio wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 6:04 am
Well done Kiter_from_Germany it looks a really interesting mod. I have often thought that getting rid of C entirely on the A15 is possible given that the B position is much the same as the original speed4.
Thanks, to regis and you, for supporting so many good ideas through the years!

@foilholio:
right, getting rid of C would be pretty straight foreward - I had a day in NL, when I disconnected the C bridle at their ECLs pulling C and half the mixer out!
Result was not so good. The underpressure in the area of C is still so strong that profile needs C support to stay in shape. So empiric result says 'no' to this mod at a15.
On one hand predictable, on the other surprising:
The tip part of a profile is more sensitive against (underpressure) deformation than the front part of the wing (The B bridle connection works up to nearly 50% of profile depth, but we need more support from 50% to 100% (at the back part) of profile)
This leads to a particularly sense of a 'backweigthed mixer' - it handles exactely this point!
So I'm a little irritated at the moment - I think, designs with repositioned B (45-50%) and C (70-75%) and Z (as ever) in combination with a backweighted mixer may be better for profile in general!

In panshs products this works just for pansh a15, aurora II and aeolus have more conventional connection points .

BtW1: A nice guy gives me hands on an aeolus next month, hopefully. I'm pretty curious to measure and document some results here...

BtW2: Recently I stumbled in a very valuable old post from you regarding sealing of old canopys with 'shoe goo'.
One collegue gave me an old speed 3 to bring it back to life. I set the lines back to their original length and we had a nik wax wash but filling of the kite is still pretty lousy - garment is still porous after one wash.
Now after this first repairs the tips won't fill completely in static flight (still flattering), and kite refills bad after power / depower actions). You dont know shoe goo works after nik wax session, or have you a better technic developed? (perhaps pm reference to another post?)
By now I think ram pressure is a (little) design problem in S3 kite design, too - so it is a little sensitive against aging porousness effects.
So next to porousness I will experiment with the intake flaps to improve ram air flow into the kite. May I am right?
Last edited by Kiter_from_Germany on Tue May 23, 2017 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Mon May 22, 2017 6:28 pm

sniplet of a ride session we had this weekend in NL.

Rider is my collegue (est. 85 lb) who presented this vid an hour ago.

Video was not planned, more a coincidental shot of a drone session of the collegues collegues father !

Last information: I like to thank Noels father who made it .Thanks, thanks, thanks for that!

The first video of a pansh with the new bridle setup and a ride on the water!

Bridle setup is V1.0.

What you see in general is the agility of the kite, generating enough power for kitesurfing.
What you see also, is this little drift phase at the end of downloop. It is not flying through the turn, it is just turning for about half a second in the upward stroke phase.

V1.1 of tweak will handle this, I think.

The wind was low, of about 10-12 kn I assume.

Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxRB5PW0Jc0

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1843
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Thu May 25, 2017 3:25 am

The kite looks very agile in the video. I am eager to try this new "back weighted" mixer you invented. I am amazed none of the foil kite designers have tried this? The ratios at 432 are quite linear and would seem to suit the A15 better. With a WAC line the ratio becomes 210 vs 310 on a regular 421 mixer. That's a loss of 33% Z travel but a gain of 100% B travel. The main differences with the 432 is a loss of camber, reduction in bar travel (good) and an increase in bar pressure. The increase in bar pressure is 100% for B and 50% for C, which is a lot. The bar travel decrease should be I guess about 50%, as B is the major mover. The camber change is not massive, but significant. All this is too much to guess at and needs to be tested.

Did you make any changes to the B and C bridles on the kite? It seems like you rearranged them at the tips in that diagram? Interesting you tried dropping C completely and it seems a waste of time, I am still curious to try it myself though. Interestingly the new Flysurfer Sonic Race has only ABZ, I guess the shorter cord length makes it more viable.

As to coating with shoegoo there is only the method I mention and a few others have in that thread. It works very well.

borist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 480
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:30 am
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby borist » Thu May 25, 2017 4:27 am

This looks very interesting indeed. What line type do you use for splicing your bridle additions? Kite looks a noticeably more agile than with standard setup. Good work!

borist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 480
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:30 am
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby borist » Thu May 25, 2017 4:39 am

Since I'm not as skilled as you guys in modding foil kite bridles, I have another question:
Are most of the original bridle lines used? If so, how can I easily identify original vs custom in the table/line plan?

Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Thu May 25, 2017 7:37 pm

foilholio wrote:
Thu May 25, 2017 3:25 am
The kite looks very agile in the video. I am eager to try this new "back weighted" mixer you invented. I am amazed none of the foil kite designers have tried this? The ratios at 432 are quite linear and would seem to suit the A15 better. With a WAC line the ratio becomes 210 vs 310 on a regular 421 mixer. That's a loss of 33% Z travel but a gain of 100% B travel. The main differences with the 432 is a loss of camber, reduction in bar travel (good) and an increase in bar pressure. The increase in bar pressure is 100% for B and 50% for C, which is a lot. The bar travel decrease should be I guess about 50%, as B is the major mover. The camber change is not massive, but significant. All this is too much to guess at and needs to be tested.

Did you make any changes to the B and C bridles on the kite? It seems like you rearranged them at the tips in that diagram? Interesting you tried dropping C completely and it seems a waste of time, I am still curious to try it myself though. Interestingly the new Flysurfer Sonic Race has only ABZ, I guess the shorter cord length makes it more viable.

As to coating with shoegoo there is only the method I mention and a few others have in that thread. It works very well.
Hi Foilholio,
hi borist,
Im pretty impressed about the agility, too. It seems that the B makes clear improvment - a little suprising, but a noticably observation.
May also have its reason with better Z involvment, but I noticed it just working with B in early test phase...

Good hints about bar pressure - your right. Result is pretty easy still would say like a good tube kite (stearable with one hand)

What I now describe are the works state V1.1.

Like V1.0 it is pretty just a reconfiguration what's already there. V1.1 is just easier to setup and has better flying results.
Thats what I ment with recalculation of my doings. The last prototype of it looked different but I optimized to "easy changes" .
The tweak came out finally to be pretty easy to implement for everyone who can splice a line.

All the vids are made in this documented configuration.

This is it. I will insert this text tomorrow in my original post (I leave it at V1.1 state).
Tweak_V11.png
1: Sleeve b78 out and implement it as shown above A
2: Sleeve c78 out and implement it as shown above B
3: Sleeve z5678 out and implement it as shown above C
4: Make LCLs which add 12cm of original length of LCLs ab (old b7, b8, new position is a8,a9 in plan below )
5: Sleeve b56 out and get rid of it
6: Add pigtails (fix) A: 40cm, Z:20cm, mixer pigtails (variable), adjust to B: 40,5cm, C:37cm

And you are ready to go.

(remark to point (4) 12 cm is the value I have measured at pansh a15, 18m.
pansh a15, 12m may be equal or -1-2cm, LCL can be trimmed by its knot so I dont bother with that... start with 12cm, will work better than original.

All the resleeving should come up to the new design:
pash_a15_lineplan_mod_BackweightedMixer_tensionlines.png
You see we are just renaming whats already there. Even the mixer has equal lines, just set it up "backweighted".

(finally, foilholio, thats just for you! (the others dont need to come into bridle hell :angryfire: :D )
1) The difference between A pigtail and Z pingtail will bring z1234 into play (-> I short Z in Relation to A by 20cm). But z5678 has to have its (old relative) length (easy by sleeving out and connecting to C, same old length).
So in V1.2 I will check to leave z5678 in Z bridle by adding 20cm between Z and z5678 to equal that 20cm pigtail thing to 40cm)
Why: For bigger kites (18m) it may be nice to have 100% bar stroke at z5678 instead 75%. I just have to check stability issues (75% makes it more stable against tip stalls).
2) C/Z relation can be fine adjusted with C mixer
3) ECL can be pretty easy be adjusted (measured) by looking at the tip. In my stability test vid of 18m pansh you see ECL too short resulting in deformation of tip)
4) b56 - At the moment I would say we dont need b56 any more.
But perhaps I find a way to check relevance in special conditions. Then I will implement it on A (a10,a11) for static stability of profile again.
But it is not so easy to implement because we would need a new, longer b56 (new name :a1011) line (but how long has it to be?). If useful, this would be v1.3 or final.

CU

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1843
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Fri May 26, 2017 1:28 am

Wow ok, you not only came up with an awesome new mixer, but you have rearranged the bridles massively at the tips! What I can see you have done at the tips is basically move all the bridles forward -> on the mixer. So B->A@Mixer C->B@Mixer Z->C@Mixer, you then don't connect to Z on the mixer with the tip bridles, and you also have removed some of B at the tip, B5 and B6.

The effect of all this will be lower ratios for the kite at the tip. So the center of the kite is 432, the tip becomes 320 compared to the center. This should make the tip more stable and reduce bar pressure! Now the really interesting bit, I think this is what the new Flysurfer Sonic Race has setup on it. So you are really onto something! I think this type of bridling helps resolve a long standing issue with foil kites (or foils with quite a cord change on the span) where the tip is pulled too much compared to the center and stalls early, or becomes unstable.

A small idea I just had thinking of the 3 pulleys on the Sonic Race you could ADD an extra pulley back to the front of the mixer. This pulley you could use to drive B at the tip, giving you 321 at the tip. So basically the mixer would have 4:3:2:1 ratios. You could even then divide the kite up further and have say 432 at the center then 321 then 210. Interesting. All this should make new kite shapes possible, especially with more taper on the span, i.e. smaller tips.

I am going to sum up the changes you have made so far, to check I understand them correctly.

12m A15 V1.0 Kiter_from_Germany Mod (all units cm)

@the kite. A(Amain)+40, Z(Zmain)+20, A8 +7.5, A9 +7.5, Z5678 -12
move z5678 to C (main), move c78 to B (main), move b78 to A (main), remove(delete) B5,B6 and B56.

@the mixer. Swap pulley lines to change ratio from 421 to 432, added 35cm long adjustable B and C (mains).
I guess they are in addition to the existing B and C (mains)?
The settings for the mixer are A0,B-1,C0,Z0 or just B-1?

18m A15 V1.1 Kiter_from_Germany Mod (all units cm)

all the same as 1.0 except A8 +12, A9 +12, B and C (mains) adjustable additions are 40cm each.
Mixer settings are A0 B0.5 C-3 Z-20???

Optional can leave Z45678 connected to Z but will need a 10-12cm extension.


Ok think I got it. :-? :-)
Kiter_from_Germany wrote: 4) b56 - At the moment I would say we dont need b56 any more.
But perhaps I find a way to check relevance in special conditions. Then I will implement it on A (a10,a11) for static stability of profile again.
But it is not so easy to implement because we would need a new, longer b56 (new name :a1011) line (but how long has it to be?). If useful, this would be v1.3 or final.
I think you would extend B56 the same as you do B8 and B9, so +7.5cm on the 12m and +12cm on the 18m. And there is the extra pulley option too.

There is one potential issue I can see with all this though. Now that you are driving part of Z at the tips through a pulley there is a potential to effect relaunch, like with the malabar. So does it still relaunch well?

opie
Medium Poster
Posts: 116
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:30 pm
Kiting since: 2016
Local Beach: sherman island
Style: foiling
Gear: Ketos Fr2, Fr2XL Cloudkites, Pansh A15 15m, 12m
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby opie » Fri May 26, 2017 2:16 am

foilholio wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 1:28 am
This should make the tip more stable and reduce bar pressure!
I can't find it now but I was under the impression this mod increases bar pressure?

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1843
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Fri May 26, 2017 2:55 am

Yes it should increase overall bar pressure. What I was saying is that by rearranging the tip bridles like he has that will reduce bar pressure some. So changing mixer to 432 = +bar pressure, move bridles around = -bar pressure. So you have existing barpressure + more bar pressure - some bar pressure = ??? which most likely is more than the existing bar pressure.

This is all to do with the ratios on the mixer. If more of the kite is moved to the lower ratios like 1/4 or 1/3 then the force is less on the bar. If more is move to the higher like directly on the bar 1/1 then the force is higher. The bar carries the force at the same fraction the mixer ratios the movement.

Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Fri May 26, 2017 7:58 am

opie wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 2:16 am
foilholio wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 1:28 am
This should make the tip more stable and reduce bar pressure!
I can't find it now but I was under the impression this mod increases bar pressure?
Hi,
pansh a15 has a standard bar pressure from about already zero in standard setup.
After tweak v1.1 it is still low (low enough for me :), to handle the kite with one hand (power/depower and steering).

What I found:
Lower bar pressure is not better "ad infinitum", bridle lines need at least a little pretension.
Standard setup of A15 shows a very weak Z (almost useless), the drawback is loss of agility there.
Main disadvantage of standard setup is that you have no ability to get "stall to stall" in one power stroke (full power for jumps, or brake in zenit, full depower for making the kite quick as possible or set it temporarily pressureless in gusts) as long as you are no orang utan, who can handle 1m bar stroke without gripping lines (This is valid at least for the 18m kite).


Return to “Foil Kites”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron