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The Pansh A15, an A18 review

For all foil kite riders


Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Fri May 26, 2017 9:26 am

foilholio wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 1:28 am
Wow ok, you not only came up with an awesome new mixer, but you have rearranged the bridles massively at the tips! What I can see you have done at the tips is basically move all the bridles forward -> on the mixer. So B->A@Mixer C->B@Mixer Z->C@Mixer, you then don't connect to Z on the mixer with the tip bridles, and you also have removed some of B at the tip, B5 and B6.
Exactly
foilholio wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 1:28 am

The effect of all this will be lower ratios for the kite at the tip. So the center of the kite is 432, the tip becomes 320 compared to the center. This should make the tip more stable and reduce bar pressure! Now the really interesting bit, I think this is what the new Flysurfer Sonic Race has setup on it. So you are really onto something! I think this type of bridling helps resolve a long standing issue with foil kites (or foils with quite a cord change on the span) where the tip is pulled too much compared to the center and stalls early, or becomes unstable.
Yes, V1.1 is my test bench for that.
The reduction of profile depth from center to tip will increase the the angle at a given barstroke generally.
But the supliers handle this problem by implementing aa additional gear:
Bar throw is implemented 100% (direct) at the center of kite, but reduced by cos(alpha) at the tips.
alpha is the angle between vertical and the line supplying the tip bridle.

When this all (profile depth, connection points, angle effect) doesnt match, the kite produces tip stalls.... Hmm, sounds complicated.
By implementing z5678 at C I use the advantage of backweigthed mixer (Here I have 75% gear, standard mixer hasent) AND because backbend tension lines look cool! (.... just kidding)
foilholio wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 1:28 am
A small idea I just had thinking of the 3 pulleys on the Sonic Race you could ADD an extra pulley back to the front of the mixer. This pulley you could use to drive B at the tip, giving you 321 at the tip. So basically the mixer would have 4:3:2:1 ratios. You could even then divide the kite up further and have say 432 at the center then 321 then 210. Interesting. All this should make new kite shapes possible, especially with more taper on the span, i.e. smaller tips.
Had some thoughs about that too, but I think market acceptance could be a problem.
But as FS starts with this, well see.
foilholio wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 1:28 am
I am going to sum up the changes you have made so far, to check I understand them correctly.

12m A15 V1.0 Kiter_from_Germany Mod (all units cm)

@the kite. A(Amain)+40, Z(Zmain)+20, A8 +7.5, A9 +7.5, Z5678 -12
move z5678 to C (main), move c78 to B (main), move b78 to A (main), remove(delete) B5,B6 and B56.

@the mixer. Swap pulley lines to change ratio from 421 to 432, added 35cm long adjustable B and C (mains).
I guess they are in addition to the existing B and C (mains)?
The settings for the mixer are A0,B-1,C0,Z0 or just B-1?
A8 +7.5, A9 +7.5 (correct), B78 - 12 (added this info in post a minute ago), Z5678 -12 (correct)
But this V1.0 mod results in the swept tips (they are stable but not parallel which brakes a little
swepttips.png
swepttips.png (9.36 KiB) Viewed 664 times
Mixer Result is the same than in V1.1:
A: 0 (Reference Point)
B: 0 (-1 ... +0,5 for trim reference)
C:-3 ( Trim against a nicly engaged Z1234, when powerd Z should double bend compared to C = trim ok. Start with C trim)
Z: -20 (Is true - we get rid of loose Z. Important: Z5678 is connected to C otherwise this wont work!)

To avoid this: :o just important remark: By rearranging the mixer you have to change B and C line. C will be the new B line.
C material is not capable to handle this. You have to refabic it. My actual suggestion is to prepare "C+mixer_C" and "B+Mixer_B" lines from high quality lines 300kg, for example Liros DC 300. The new combined lines should be 60cm longer than there original replacements to prepare the aditional mixer length.

From here I just comment your text:

18m A15 V1.1 Kiter_from_Germany Mod (all units cm) (correct)

all the same as 1.0 except A8 +12, A9 +12, (correct)
no shorten of B78, z5678 (this is the differenc to V1.0 they stay at original length)

Mixer settings are A0 B0.5 C-3 Z-20 (correct)

Optional can leave z5678 connected to Z but will need a 17-20cm extension (expected)

Gonna recheck my post this weekend - to get my errors out. Thanks for hints.



Reverse start: No problems with that, cleanly and easy reverse start.

Last remark: I gonna make a vid from that - I just have to resplice some lines so that they look understandable, when im hovering along my kite with the camera, describing what to do .... all takes unfortunately a little time

Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Fri May 26, 2017 5:28 pm

After implementing V1.1 and 1st test with a15,12m I have both kites flying V1.1 tweak. I recommend this because we may get better over all flying results and it is easier to implement.

Regis-de-giens
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 504
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12, Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Regis-de-giens » Sat May 27, 2017 6:55 am

Great worked really. I am impressed. Cheers to foilholio as well.
this mod seem to be really great. Wana ask you again the question but : have you noticed a slight decrease in wind range, like a bit more power and/or instability in the high end ?

foilholio
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Posts: 1842
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
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Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Sat May 27, 2017 11:14 pm

So you are adding the Mains additions on top of the old mains. Because you add 20cm to Z, then when you do the mixer test and you need to subtract 20cm from Z, so you position it on it's original Main end???? I am a little confused.

So below I clarify and update the changes

12m A15 V1.0 Kiter_from_Germany Mod (all units cm)

@the kite. A(Amain)+40, Z(Zmain)+20, A8 +7.5, A9 +7.5, Z5678 -12, B78-12
move z5678 to C (main), move c78 to B (main), move b78 to A (main), remove(delete) B5,B6 and B56.

@the mixer. Swap pulley lines to change ratio from 421 to 432,swap B and C (mains), added 40cm(60cm total before knoting/looping) long adjustable section to swapped B and C (mains). You recommend to replace the existing B and C mains with stronger line by adding their length to the new adjustable section.
The settings for the mixer are A0,B-1,C0,Z-20

18m A15 V1.1 Kiter_from_Germany Mod (all units cm)

all the same as 1.0 except A8 +12, A9 +12, Z5678 and B78 are not shortened
Mixer settings are A0 B0.5 C-3 Z-20

Optional can leave Z45678 connected to Z but will need a 17-20cm extension.

I think I am more confused now. I'll wait for some more details before I touch mine. Thanks so far!

Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Sun May 28, 2017 7:52 am

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 6:55 am
Great worked really. I am impressed. Cheers to foilholio as well.
this mod seem to be really great. Wana ask you again the question but : have you noticed a slight decrease in wind range, like a bit more power and/or instability in the high end ?
Hi Regis,
thanks for your quote - still testing - last time yesterday. I had the opportunity to get gusty high end conditions for my 18m a15.
What I found was:
Windrange - didnt find d decrease its more the relation between windrange, maneuverabilty and upwind capability Yesterday I found that in High end gusts a little more B would be nice (B+1,5cm). But lowwind the given numbers are good (B+0,5). So to find bes overall setting it needs some testing for target range.
With the b+0,5 I am impressed by power, I think this is a good over all setting.

High end instability:
With version V1.1 I had, when high end gust hits some stalls from the side of wing (some name this tacco).
In Version V1.0 I didnt had this so I think V1.0 needs a little fine adjustment.
I came up adding a minimixer in a567 to measure best adjustment (6-12cm). Unfortunately this setup coudnt be tested because afternoon got so crowdy (33degrees Celsius) I wasnt able to find my place for testing this.
Missing b56 could play its role in this effect, because underpressure over the kite could deform also this area so nose of profile may fall inner side.
But this is an optimization effect just take a little time and a good sessions in the right wind conditions.
V1.0 is more stable but a little slower because of this sweeping of tips (correct word for that?):
swepttips.png
swepttips.png (9.36 KiB) Viewed 470 times

Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Sun May 28, 2017 8:44 am

foilholio wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 11:14 pm
So you are adding the Mains additions on top of the old mains. Because you add 20cm to Z, then when you do the mixer test and you need to subtract 20cm from Z, so you position it on it's original Main end???? I am a little confused.

So below I clarify and update the changes

12m A15 V1.0 Kiter_from_Germany Mod (all units cm)

@the kite. A(Amain)+40, Z(Zmain)+20, A8 +7.5, A9 +7.5, Z5678 -12, B78-12
move z5678 to C (main), move c78 to B (main), move b78 to A (main), remove(delete) B5,B6 and B56.

@the mixer. Swap pulley lines to change ratio from 421 to 432,swap B and C (mains), added 40cm(60cm total before knoting/looping) long adjustable section to swapped B and C (mains). You recommend to replace the existing B and C mains with stronger line by adding their length to the new adjustable section.
The settings for the mixer are A0,B-1,C0,Z-20

18m A15 V1.1 Kiter_from_Germany Mod (all units cm)

all the same as 1.0 except A8 +12, A9 +12, Z5678 and B78 are not shortened
Mixer settings are A0 B0.5 C-3 Z-20

Optional can leave Z45678 connected to Z but will need a 17-20cm extension.

I think I am more confused now. I'll wait for some more details before I touch mine. Thanks so far!
Hi foilholio,
sorry for confusing.
I missed to draw the painting of the doings completely. Here you see the mixer part:
Tweak_V11_withmixer.png
I added pigtails to A and Z. A = Amain compared to pansh nomenclature, thats it.

A is reference point so mixertest is always compared to the point between A and a1234 . By just adding 40cm pigtail to A and 20cm pigtail to Z we get a mixertest of A:0, Z:-20cm.

You are absolutely right with your summary.
Thanks for that.
I would have done better to go through the lines decribing the line length variations
and have a seconed run, describing the reconnecting, like you did.
The renaming of lines changing their bridles made me stumbeling during writing.

To all the folks out there' think I have to state this:
Im describing a mixer design which has some advantages for kites with low AR and backset connection points. pansh a15 is a good candidate for that despite the fact, that sides of wing have NO backset connectinon points. For that we need this bridle reconnection staff - but some tweaking also. This finetuning process is still pending.

But after all you:
* are getting a much better power engagement and flight characteristics of pansh a15 kites
* and its Kite fabric gets much nearer to its potential.

What you can't expect is getting a full trimmed and optimized kite when you follow the receipts.
That is for two reasons:
* I have to tweak some special things around stability versus performance. This is an optimization process and it takes still time. V1.0 and V1.1 is a good example. V1.1 is a quicker kite, but seems to be a lilttle overoptimized. This will result in a slight variation here or there. Unfortunatley the weather conditions are not willing always to make me research what I like, this takes time.
* Mabe fabrication varians still need personal trim after mod in your kite.

I'm sure If all you experts out there are willing to spent some hours out there, we all will get a gooood smile in our faces.
The platform I described is good for that, I'm sure.

So my recommendation for all is this: Go on V1.1, willing to optimize (experiment), or start with V1.0, or wait a few weeks.

Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Sun May 28, 2017 2:48 pm

One/two questions for the experts:
* Can anyone give me a hint, how to set up editable tables in this forum text?
Even in Code Tags I am not able to suppress whitespace killing to set up text tables.

What I like to to is something like that:
http://forum.oase.com/showpost.php?p=13 ... tcount=205
(One of my german posts about line lengths for a15)

* Whitespace killing was responible for some missunderstanding and difficulties in reading.
Can anyone help? Perhaps another way to work with tabs or so?

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1842
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Mon May 29, 2017 1:30 am

Just post an excel file.

I gather you are doing the mixer test by leveling the front and rear connections, which is not the flysurfer way but can work , you just need to measure Z as you can see.

What I don't get is you could remove 20cm from all the mixer extensions and so remove the need for a Z extension. Or you could even maybe remove 40cm from all and remove the need for A extension, and remove the original B and C and just shorten Z.

Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Mon May 29, 2017 7:55 am

foilholio wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 1:30 am
Just post an excel file.
Oh, man, didnt got this. Stoppt my tries with attachments when .xlsx was rejected. . xls works, great!
Pansh_a15_LineLengths.xls
(32.5 KiB) Downloaded 16 times
Hey folks!
What you have, when you load this excel, is the line lengths in bridle system of pansh a15 in 12m and 18m in standard fabric (cant tell about UL for now).
Additionally you find the wingspans of all kites from panshs HP.

Line Length of the other pansh a15 kites (9m, 15m) can be calculated using this formular:

Bridle_Linelength_MyKite = Wingspan_MyKite / Wingspan_18m * Bridle_Linelength_18m

This should work for all lines EXCEPT A,B,C,Z (main), because their lengths are defined by mixer design, which is same for all a15 kites !

But things may change. If anyone finding different line length (more than 2cm difference, ca. 2kg load on line while measuring) pls inform me. Linelength could have been changed
(Example: I have no idea, if pansh had changed line length with UL design. Perhaps someone of the proud UL owners rechecks?)

Kiter_from_Germany
Medium Poster
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:39 am
Kiting since: 3
Local Beach: Northern Sea, Netherlands
Style: intermediate Twin, beginner Wave
Gear: Tubes: spleene spx in 9m,12m, ozone catalyst 14, jn wildthing 16,5
Foil: pansh A15 12m, 18m
Gear: Twintips, Directionals
Brand Affiliation: depends on the wind

Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Mon May 29, 2017 8:34 am

foilholio wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 1:30 am
I gather you are doing the mixer test by leveling the front and rear connections, which is not the flysurfer way but can work , you just need to measure Z as you can see.

What I don't get is you could remove 20cm from all the mixer extensions and so remove the need for a Z extension. Or you could even maybe remove 40cm from all and remove the need for A extension, and remove the original B and C and just shorten Z.
Thanks for this, I added the mixer test procedure in picture.
Tweak_V11_withmixertest.png
Indeed I'm doing this way since a year, forgot to remark it, so thanks.
Btw: The mixer setup is different. FS for example uses mixers where C adjustments work on B also.
This mixer B works completely decoupled from C which is useful with the backweighted mixer.

Variants:
Yes there are many ways to achieve this.
My design goal was to make tweaks which have reduced splicing or cutting - to make it reversible.
I decided so proceed as shown because this was in my opinion the only way to handle this.

A fully proper way to get rid of Z's -20cm could be to shorten z1234 by 20 cm for example.
But I didnt want to cut original lines nor to supply differnet type of material in these long lines (->aging shrinks)
BTW2: This relative shorten of Z+z1234 by 20 cm is responsible for getting better Z engagement compared to originial "almost useless Z".


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