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The Pansh A15, an A18 review

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foilholio
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:23 pm

Yes it will change but just do whats easiest. Preserving a mixer test is not something to think about when you are adjusting at this level.

Kiter_from_Germany
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:39 pm

foilholio wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:12 pm
Your Z5 change seems weird...
Forgot to answer this:
z1...z4 is engaged from z1234 which is shortend by 28cm
z5..z8 is engaged by z5678 which is shortend by 17cm

z5 is between those different engagements in my tweak. To make it nice working I found a little shortening of it works better.
But there is no special issue nor negative stability effect, it will be working nevertheless...

Btw: all values are empiric investigated. Theory and recheck has to be done next weeks of course.

So for example my 12m pansh will be setup up different, after being ready with my A15/18m.
I then will check just to use
  • The resleeving task
  • The use of just 12cm for every value next to this value
  • Just to forget small numbers (4,5cm for example)
... and so on... lets simplify!


... and then we see whether reality hits theory! :o :D

Kiter_from_Germany
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:43 pm

puh,
inspired by the famous ideas of incredible Flysurfers, I decided to put some little helper lines in the knots of my mixers.
Former evaluations with rubber rings were not successful through breaking through stress.
Lines are 0,5mm liros DC60, spliced with 0,3mm steel wire...
723F90F5-4D27-404F-9149-51C9B99B38C2.jpeg
the lines, approx 3cm
058C0D92-AE66-4BF6-971A-B910A30BE13C.jpeg
setup in mixer, perhaps later with figure 8 knots?

foilholio
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:11 am

Hehe I only need to adjust Z now C is gone :-)
Kiter_from_Germany wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:39 pm
foilholio wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:12 pm
Your Z5 change seems weird...
Forgot to answer this:
z1...z4 is engaged from z1234 which is shortend by 28cm
z5..z8 is engaged by z5678 which is shortend by 17cm

z5 is between those different engagements in my tweak. To make it nice working I found a little shortening of it works better.
But there is no special issue nor negative stability effect, it will be working nevertheless...
I feel so dumb :-) obvious now it blends the two. Personally I will just add individual extensions to Z from the tips in. It is much quicker than main bridle disassemble re assemble and more customizable, a more smooth arc is possible.
Kiter_from_Germany wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:39 pm
Btw: all values are empiric investigated. Theory and recheck has to be done next weeks of course.
Noted, but you are on the right path. Quickly making changes when you are flying will get you there and improve your understanding, when you see how those changes affect the kite.

foilholio
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:35 am

Made the small change of moving the second in tip bridle from B to C. Added one lcl loop to shorten it. Test flew the kite and then adjusted trim a little for more depower. Wind was very light sub 5knots, may have been the conditions but absolutely no tip instability. Turn and relaunch improved. Can notice good negative camber before Z engages at the tip.

Right now I am extremely happy with the kite, more agile, more stable and easier to control. It feels like quite a different kite. 100% C bridle is not needed on this kite. I will now need to test longer to see where I want to go with changes, there is no obvious defects in the setup now. I need to decide whether I want to pursue now better turning, better L/D or more power/lift. For better lift and L/D I will for both change to flatten Z by adding progressive Z extensions longest at the tip. Lift will be merely adjusting Z shorter on top of that. Turning I could move to 2:1 mixer, but I am quite happy with the turning now, it is quite sufficient. Pursuit of L/D will degrade turn though.

If anyone wants to try just let me know, and I will give instructions. It is quite a simple mod, only a small amount of kite line is needed to complete it. Splicing is not necessary and as said C bridle is gone.

Also I did compare the old C tip bridles to the B ones and they are basically the same, the C are slightly longer and this setup needs them shorter so I would not use the C bridles at all.

Long term I may consider re bridling A to support more flattening ala Psycho4 style. :-)

Kiter_from_Germany
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:11 am

Congretulations, great news.

C info is very interesting.

As said I had heavy collapses with my tests, maybe I was wrong on another side.

We‘ll see where things go, impressive how complx changes may feel, and how easy and plausible they are, when onethelf is understanding what change has what effect.

So after all we see what pansh gives the community:
A good RnD platform for getting deep in knowledge about foil kites!!
😳😁🤔🤫😂

foilholio
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:42 am

Thanks I am quite happy!

The problem you have with the 4:3:2 backweighted mixer, is because it won't change camber much if at all you won't be able to do things like introduce increasing negative camber that then changes to positive camber, which is what I have particularly at the tips now. This trick makes creating a both a more stable kite depowered and more powered kite possible or easier to achieve. It's an old advantage flysurfer had over shall well say less intelligent kite designers particularly those that play a lot with tubes.

You should also consider sewing more negative camber into the tips, if their stability depowered is paramount. You could also have some manufacturing defect to the amount of camber there, if Flysurfer can make those mistakes, Pansh certainly can too.

I really hope Pansh picks up some of this and updates the A15, would make a much improved kite. Can't emphasize thinning the airfoil more aswell, more depower, power , speed, turn. Very winning, only some loss of stability particularly drifting (oh well). A third reduction would be quite moderate, half seems about right. Would need testing though.

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby gmasiak » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:02 pm

Hi foilholio,
I have a A15 9m kite and it will be great if you can share what is your final bridle layout
My kite is pretty stable but depower is almost not existing and turning is very slow.
Thank you.
Greg

foilholio
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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby foilholio » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:15 am

First things are not 100% final, but I am as said very happy so far, I do need to test more. I don't have measurements, but can take them later. My measurements for the 18m most likely will not translate directly to the 9m. There is a formula for bridle size conversion, I will have to look for it unless someone else can share it. It is not always exactly correct in the figures it produces. This is most likely because the setup for different sizes needs to be slightly different. What I can do now is share how I did the mod, so you can replicate it on your 9m.

First you will want some measurements. You'll need 2 screw drivers and a measuring tape.

With the kite laid out on some grass, fix both front mains together with a screwdriver in the ground. Now I measured all full depowered endpoints for B C and Z and A main and pulley lines, everything there on the mixer. What is only needed for this mod is the difference between A and B, or the AB limit. I have the numbers for mine which "may be similar" to yours. My AB limit was 544mm. This measurement is wrong from new as my mixer has already shrunk. But it is still working, as B is still going slack at the edge of the window, which was the behavior at new. The negative to this being shorter is obviously less depower, but the kite won't fly forward as easy in light winds particularly from the center window.

Next I fixed separately both front and rear mains so both A and Z mains are equal at the top. A mixer test. I measured both C and B difference from AZ. You only need B, my measurement was B +105mm.

First you will need about 2-3meters of kite line and something to cut it before proceeding.

Lay out one mixer so you can start disassembling it without getting confused where the lines all go. Use nice big bit of space to do this. Keep the other mixer untouched so you can reference it for how things joined up before.

Disassemble the front and rear mains from pulley lines and AZ mains and front and rear lines. Always try preserve the open layout of the mixer while things are disconnected so you can easily reassemble without crossing or TWISTING things!

Remove the C pulley line completely, it's gone :-)

Remove the B Pulley line and attach it to the front side of the B pulley.

Remove the C pulley, make a small 2-3inch kite line loop that goes the C pulley and has a 8 knot on the end.

Remove the A Main from the A bridles, double it over and reconnect the sewn ends to the A bridles. Make a 20cm kite line loop with 8 knot A main extension. Larkshead the A main double loop end under the 8 knot.

Assemble the Amain extension , C pulley loop and front main. Make a 50cm kite line loop with 8 knot front line extension. Larkshead the front line to above the knot. Attach frontline extension to front main. The mixer is now coming together!

Thread the B Pulley line through from the top of the C pulley and then through the front of the B Pulley. Be carefully not to twist it at all.

Make an overhand knot on the stitched section of the B pulley line loose end. Do this away from the Loop.

Make an 8 knot on the Z main 40cm up from the loose end. Larkshead the Z main loose end back onto itself above the knot. This is a little tricky if you have never done it before. This forms an adjustable loop on the Z main bottom.

Attach the rear main to the B pulley line. Move the over hand knot to be hard or close against the rear main but dont use the rear main as part of it.

Make a 8 knot in the middle of the rear main. Larkshead the bottom of the Z adjustment loop to the bottom of that knot.

Reconnect the rear line to rear main. The mixer is now fully connected and only needs to be adjusted.

Adjust the C pulley loop to about an inch or smaller.

Screw driver the front mains. Adjusted the A main length till the AB limit is the same as before.

Do a mixer test and adjust the Z adjustment loop till B is the same as before. When adjusting these loops you will need to be careful to balance them before tightening the larksheads.



When making the loops for the first mixer, if you cut for the second it will go much faster!

Repeat everything for the second mixer. You should be able to just copy the lengths off the first, Infact things like the C Pulley loop and A mains should be copied, UNLESS there is symmetry problems, which you can now fix with all the adjustments you have!

Remove ALL THE C BRIDLES.

Move the 2 tip B bridles, to the C attachments, 2 loops around the attachment LCL on the outer then 1 to the inner.

Fly the kite, adjust the trim at the bar, then at the front line adjustment.

Test and have play with things. You have a easy adjustment for Z, move the larks head to the Zmain, B pulley line join to lengthen and get more stability, better upwind. Move it down to the Front line front main join to shorten and get more power. If you want to adjust it further, adjust the loop on the Z main. The mixer test on the A15 doesn't seem to translate quite right when the mixer changes like this. The camber increase is less on this mixer and most likely the mixer test on the A15 does not measure at the correct sheeting point. You will need to play with Z to get exactly what you want. I highly suggest trying the 3 settings for different conditions so you can get a feel for their advantages and disadvantages.

Good luck and don't hesitate to ask me to explain more for you. If you are confused about something I write ask me! :-)

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Re: The Pansh A15, an A18 review

Postby kitexpert » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:13 pm

Foilholio, you should give a general description from what you have done and what are the goals and what is the reasoning behind your modifications. And a bit more specific level than "to make kite turn better", "to have better high end" or what ever nice wishes.

I don't think any 9m kite owner will make similar mods as yours based on 18m kite, even if there is a "bridle size conversion table" available. Or any size, and very probably they shouldn't. One problem is when whole line row is taken away loads for the rest attachment points increase and something can fail.

Best is if you could show a drawing using original line plan picture of A15, it really is too arduous to dig what you are suggesting from your long posts.

So there is no more C line row, then how much B is pulled?


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