Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

The problem with flysurfer mixers.

For all foil kite riders


RudiCan
Rare Poster
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:30 pm
Kiting since: 0
Gear: Flysurfer Speed 3 12m
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The problem with flysurfer mixers.

Postby RudiCan » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:04 pm

shoot me a message please, I'll buy it. :) I have more time than money.

foilholio,
so after lots of sh*tting I flew the kite today. The wind was very light, maybe 6kts and frequent lulls, but I was able to get the kite up in the air at least.
Stunning how much a few cm matters on these giant 12 sqm kites!

I let b-main 1.5 cm longer, the c-main 2.5 cm longer and added a 4cm extension to the Z line to compensate for the shrink of the bridle lines, just like you are advocating it to compensate the shinkage of the pulley lines. I had to make an replacement line for those as a broke one of them when I tried to re-strech it, so now all the lines below the briddle attachment point are replaced. I put bow string wax on the replacement pulley line, thanks for that idea too, hopefully I can report back soon how well these modifications helped my flysurfer.

Thank you for your help!

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2383
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The problem with flysurfer mixers.

Postby foilholio » Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:02 am

np

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5835
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other

Re: The problem with flysurfer mixers.

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:20 pm

foilholio wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:34 pm
Stand on the front main or line and pull the B main till it is fully extended or fully depowered. When like this measure from the top of the A main to the top of the B main, 2 of the bits you line up in a mixer test. It should be 25cm because it is a 421 mixer, C SPL is 100cm and 1/4 of that is 25cm. You can make it slightly longer if you want to compensate for upper bridle shrink . If you want to adjust B shorter in the profile say to make it more stable but maintain full depower, just add that to you calculation. Any shorter than 25cm or even at 25cm considering the upper bridle shrink, will be more stable depowered than standard. Generally though you can always pull on a bit of bar if you need more stability, that is though as long as the profile is set right or that way.


Oh aswell, if you can observe your bridles and Z is always slack even with the bar in, which seems common for flysurfers, try loosening C while keeping B level in the mixer test. This will allow the kite to possibly be more stable while also allowing Z to tension and camber more giving it more lift. Maybe not the best upwind but it is more how they are when original. Understanding B and C better has been quite enlightening. Merely looking at the mixer producing AoA or a complete profile with ABCZ is wrong I think. A majority of change is merely A and B. If C or Z come in too early you get stability problems. If B or C come in too early or Z too late you lack lift. The setting for best L/D is not the best for lift or stability but it is more stable.
Lord help me, here I go again...

Between this thread and the "Ozone Speed System" thread or whatever it's called and FS Soul thread and manual, I think there are two maybe three versions of the Long Mixer Test aka "overall grand solution to perfectly zero-tuning a foil kite because the wind is crap and I haven't got a foil board":

1. Gunnar (appears to) ignore the mixer SORRY speed system, stake the bottom of the mixer and measure the difference between A-B, A-C and A-Z. THEN add pigtails to the pulley lines and Z-main to restore the relative distances according to the line plan. Z = C in this case.

2. In the Soul thread (and manual), it seems that you zero the mixer then check the collective A1, B1, C1 and Z lengths. Then adjust C at the mixer, although it looks different to the previous versions.

3. And foilholio, you seem to be saying zero the mixer, stand on the front main and make sure A and B are 25cm different, disregarding the line plan differences.

I was also looking for the Z-mod, but couldn't find a clear explanation on how to do it or how much to do it. Search here doesn't work very well for "Z mod" :D Sounds like just an extension for the Z-main above the pigtail which I get, but then I don't understand how you can just tie a knot in the Z-main and move C SPL down without messing things up, as on page 1 of this thread...

Gunnar's method and video makes the Long Mixer Test clear up to the point of setting Z the same as C -- why? Why even 2x C? Why wouldn't you set Z to the difference it should have been in the line plan?

For example, for the Speed3 15: A-B 8.9cm, A-C 25cm, A-Z 36.5cm... that is A1+A-main, B1+b1+B-main etc.

Zero the mixer. Add pigtails to return the differences to those above; surely that's a perfectly zeroed (blue printed? line planned?) kite?

User avatar
gmb13
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1309
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:19 am
Kiting since: 1999
Local Beach: Flag Beach, Fuerteventura
Style: Everything
Gear: Ozone, Axis, Moses, Zeeko, Firewire, SBS
Brand Affiliation: Foiling Basics, The Boardroom Fuerteventura, Ozone, Axiskiteboarding,Schwerelosigkite, Triggernaut,
Location: Fuerteventura
Contact:

Re: The problem with flysurfer mixers.

Postby gmb13 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:57 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:20 pm


Gunnar's method and video makes the Long Mixer Test clear up to the point of setting Z the same as C -- why? Why even 2x C? Why wouldn't you set Z to the difference it should have been in the line plan?

Because the Z lines shrink at that rate.

--
Gunnar

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5835
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other

Re: The problem with flysurfer mixers.

Postby Kamikuza » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:25 am

gmb13 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:57 pm
Kamikuza wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:20 pm


Gunnar's method and video makes the Long Mixer Test clear up to the point of setting Z the same as C -- why? Why even 2x C? Why wouldn't you set Z to the difference it should have been in the line plan?

Because the Z lines shrink at that rate.

--
Gunnar
Because of the geometry of the system, or coincidence?

User avatar
Kykeon
Medium Poster
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:25 pm
Kiting since: 2014
Style: Freeride
Gear: .
Brand Affiliation: $iemens

Re: The problem with flysurfer mixers.

Postby Kykeon » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:57 pm

It's great to see the flysurfer soul to support long mixer test by its design. This along many other features and characteristics make it the best freeride foil.

On the other hand it's a shame that #2 doesn't even have an adjustable mixer!
That's acceptable only at the pansh price level.

Anyway if you have a foil with adjustable mixer and it flies as you like it, just do your own marking so that you can do long mixer test later on.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2383
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The problem with flysurfer mixers.

Postby foilholio » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:58 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:20 pm
3. And foilholio, you seem to be saying zero the mixer, stand on the front main and make sure A and B are 25cm different, disregarding the line plan differences.
25cm would be if I remember correctly to make sure the depower amount is correct when the mixer is at full throw. If you are using B C to compensate for other things you may go outside that. For example you had 2cm B shrink above the mixer you would need 27cm of depower throw to get full depower. You can possibly run out of too much power range doing such things though and affect reverse flying i.e. relaunch. more of a big kite problem though.
Kamikuza wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:20 pm
I was also looking for the Z-mod, but couldn't find a clear explanation on how to do it or how much to do it.
If you looked at the threads first page you would see
Image
that is the Z mod.
Kamikuza wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:20 pm

Sounds like just an extension for the Z-main above the pigtail which I get
It is and good.
Kamikuza wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:20 pm

, but then I don't understand how you can just tie a knot in the Z-main and move C SPL down without messing things up,
Well you may have missed the mixer test to level things out again after you do the Z mod, that keeps everything the same except you have now more depower. The only real obstacle you can run into is you run out of C adjustment and then need to make C extensions which is quite a bit more work than just the Z mod. You can also run out of trim at the bar, moving the pulley line position changes the sheet position of the kite at the same bar position.

If you just change the length of Z, that will change the camber. The Z mod actual allows 3 quick Z length settings and therefore camber changes. They are the Knot, ELC and rearmain-Zmain join.

I suggest you just try.
Kamikuza wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:20 pm

as on page 1 of this thread...
Well nice to know you know it's there :-)

Kamikuza wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:20 pm

Gunnar's method and video makes the Long Mixer Test clear up to the point of setting Z the same as C -- why? Why even 2x C? Why wouldn't you set Z to the difference it should have been in the line plan?

For example, for the Speed3 15: A-B 8.9cm, A-C 25cm, A-Z 36.5cm... that is A1+A-main, B1+b1+B-main etc.

Zero the mixer. Add pigtails to return the differences to those above; surely that's a perfectly zeroed (blue printed? line planned?) kite?
There is two separate problems and this thread is trying to highlight the unknown and until recently unacknowledged problem( flysurfer has now mentioned it in a video), that is that when the pulley lines shrink they limit depower and a mixer test or even a long mixer test won't fully fix it. The long mixer test accounts for changes in the bridle above and at the mixer. It can either make the depower better or WORSE! and now I think about it, it is most likely to reduce depower even more. If you align A and Z at the upper bridles near the canopy, the effect because Z shrinks the most is the mixer will move to a more depowered state and you could then find yourself shorten B even more at the mixer to get ABCZ to line up at the upper bridle canopy. End result even less depower. but remember they are separate problems you can lengthen Z and still do the long mixer test or standard mixer test. You would be best to do a long mixer test first so you can then calculate the correct amount you need to lengthen Z and then repeat the long mixer test..

As to why flysurfer and most foils I have seen use mixers that have depower set to be so tight at the limit of the mixers full extension and so it gets limited even more when the pulleys lines eventually shrink? Well you would have to ask the local "expert" or better yet Armin, but my guess it's a carry on from when foils still used all or some of B when depowered, I think being able to fly just on A particularly stably is a fairly recent development. There is also that German desire for efficiency, though still flysurfer seems to use an excessively long B pulley line...

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5835
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other

Re: The problem with flysurfer mixers.

Postby Kamikuza » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:34 pm

Sometimes just talking things through makes what I've read settle into clarity :)

The pigtails were clear, but moving the Z-main wasn't until you mentioned re-mixering it again. Pigtail seem easier!

Basically it seems that the mixer is trying to compensate for shrinkage in the SPL and has the side effect of being able alter the profile. But is limited at both.

And the LMT and pigtails a la Gunnar is an easy and basic way to account for bridle shrinking.

If that's right, now I just need to nail down what setting individual galleries longer or shorter do . . . and which way + is :D

FWIW my abused and battered S3 15 with the DIY SPL and Cabrinha pulleys . . . the SPL are about 8cm too short, AB is short by 3cm, AC 6cm and AZ 8.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2383
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: The problem with flysurfer mixers.

Postby foilholio » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:24 am

How are you comparing AB AC AZ? Is it with the front are rear mains matched? I don't know how everyone does the LMT but you need to factor in A shrinks aswell.

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5835
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other

Re: The problem with flysurfer mixers.

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:24 am

I secured the mains at the end of the pig tails, did the mixer test then the LMT. I assumed that as the pig tails are the same length and the mixer was zeroed, it'd be the same as securing at the top of the mixer.

If I may be so bold :D I don't think you need to -- LMT is relative to A, so other things being equal it doesn't matter.


Return to “Foil Kites”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron