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Pansh Aurora2 it's here!

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EricSanders
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Pansh Aurora2 22m
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Re: Pansh Aurora2 it's here!

Postby EricSanders » Mon May 23, 2016 3:04 pm

Thanks for the feedback guys. Just pulled the trigger on the 22m Lotus material version.
Last year during our family camping vacation, which also happens to also be a great kiting spot :D , I got skunk with low winds and never got out once....not this year!

kitexpert
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Re: Pansh Aurora2 it's here!

Postby kitexpert » Mon May 23, 2016 3:40 pm

"I do have a good understanding of kites, apparently better than you in some areas." -foilholio

In which areas? How many kites have you designed or made? I've been there almost from the beginning, your profile says you've been kiting since 10, meaning 2010? Some reality check now, foilholio :lol:

Trust me, I know foilkites and arcs inside out, every detail and every design parameter. You don't even know how little you know.

"C kite keeps it's arc when not in flight and an ARC does not. They are fundamentally very different kites and the only similarity is the ARC has a C in flight, so does the psycho 4." -foilholio

Psychos flying shape is supported by the bridle, in C kites and arcs by air pressure (and some aerodynamical forces) - two completely different things.

"Front lines are a bridle." -foilholio

Only for kooks?

"If you can design kites better than flysurfer you should probably start your own brand." -foilholio

Probably I could achieve comparable results, but of course only with similar resources and only by leaning on previous kite generations. I have some further reaching ideas, but they are not necessarily beneficial enough to be profitable. They may be, if only I had a motivation to make prototype or two... Unfortunately :?: I don't have a sweat shop in China to do it for me.

I have a great respect for A. Harich, B. Hansen, R. Graham, R. Whittall etc, I know their work for a long time. They all have technical and physical understanding of kites, their work is not lottery or trying to invent the wheel again.

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Re: Pansh Aurora2 it's here!

Postby foilholio » Mon May 23, 2016 4:51 pm

I like the determination Eric hopefully the 22 does it for you.

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edt
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Re: Pansh Aurora2 it's here!

Postby edt » Mon May 23, 2016 5:20 pm

definitely right most kiters don't know too much about aerodynamics it's trial and error. Here's some things in that thread that I don't really understand:


kiteexpert: bridle cascading is missing.

What is so good about bridle cascading? Don't you want as little complexity in the bridle as you can get away with?

about the low cell count:

As far as I can tell when pansh designs kites they design it for a specific size, I think they build them to fly right in 15 meters, that's the cell count they get and then they just get a calculator and multiply so their 10 has the same cell count as their 22. Obviously this "one design" for all sizes creates problems.

kiteexpert: Otherwise those strange B-C locations are not justified . . . . The B/C positions have benefits and negatives, we will see over time I guess what is better. . . . The changes they make seem like they lack fundamental understanding.

Is there any specific reason to believe that the B-C locations are bad? I mean are they placed in a way that creates uneven stresses in the bridle? Or are they just different from industry standard?

kiteexpert you talk about the psycho 4 a lot that was released in 2008 right? Is it what you would consider one of the best foil designs out there still?

foilholio: More complicated bridles will lose tension in a changing arc shape.

Ok this one I don't understand. I figured that the more complicated you made a bridle the more self adjustments it made, the more pulleys the more lines that you add, the more evenly the entire kite is loaded. What exactly do you mean by "lose tension in a changing arc shape"

kiteexpert: There is practical limits to how small LE diameter can be. And thicker ones do fly well, even better. Limits are tested years ago

Are talking about the cuben fiber hellkite? I always figured that kite was just built when they didn't know much and if they wanted to make this sort of kite with extremely thin leading edge it wouldn't be too hard to make it extremely small, maybe even an inch. How does a thicker leading edge help? can't they redesign the bridle to keep the kite stable?

I would love to demo a peter lynn arc. Have a bunch of C kites and always wondered if the foil version of the same flew in a similar fashion. Sure does seem like a normal C kite and the arc are identical other than one is inflated and the other foil.

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Re: Pansh Aurora2 it's here!

Postby foilholio » Mon May 23, 2016 6:56 pm

Wow edt I am surprised you followed all that. Kitemoron has a lot of fixed ideas about how kites should work, many of them incorrect.

ARCs in some ways fly similar to c kites but in many ways they don't. They have autozenith and need to be steered in reverse when lower in the window and will park at 12 by themselves. They don't develop slack well when handle passing because the flexible canopy pulls on the slack lines. Relaunching them can be well interesting. Drifting they are one of the best ever, but unfortunately too heavy by todays standards. They have very poor power for their sizes. The stupid sticks in the tips always break if you crash them.

By complicated bridle I meant ones with many cascades, not pulleys. Certain bridle designs become fixed to a certain curve or arc. Simpler bridles can fit many different curves. The simplest bridles are those that have the longest single lines. If you look at the front lines, they are a very simple bridle, a big long V. Now if you have ever noticed your C kite flare and open up a bit, the front lines still stay connected and don't suddenly go slack do they? That is what I am talking about. Amazing how some people can't understand that. If you start adding more lines to the bridle, depending how they are designed they will still stay tight even if that C shape flares out or changes. Other more complicated bridle designs with many levels to them may not do this, with some parts of them staying tight and others not.

The Psycho 4 is one of the most advanced foils, but some parts of it are a little outdated and it has some kinks. and yes it was from 2008. and I know you didn't ask me :-Plol

The concept of a ZERO diameter leading edge is already well proven, foilkites, the concept of cell-less kite is already proven, single skins. Kite designers seem to believe the large tube has secret aerodynamic magic. I like what greg from brm proposes, it's some sort of conspiracy to sell more kites.

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Re: Pansh Aurora2 it's here!

Postby kitexpert » Mon May 23, 2016 8:51 pm

Thanks for good questions, edt.

Bridle cascading is a way to get bridle with smaller total line lenght, less line drag, less tangling, better keeping line lenghts original and cleaner and nicer look. It is more economical to optimize bridle lenght too.

Structurally cascaded bridle is of course more complex, but this is designers task to solve. For a designer there is four parameters which link to each other: 1)cell count, 2)bridle spacing, 3)inner supports, 4)bridle cascades. Some combinations of these are better than the other.

Different bridle line levels form a hierarchy, for a kiter it means more simplicity than complexity.

It is optimal to design kites size by size. AR defines cell count mostly: more AR, more cells to keep cell shape in order. Adding cells makes wing aerodynamically better but it increases weight, bridled ribs, parts of the kite and labour to sew it all together. If kite has very much cells (like R1, Elfs) it has to have inner structures to allow bridling every second or every third rib, or even fewer. Bridle cascades are needed too, otherwise bridle becomes a hopeless mess.

"Is there any specific reason to believe that the B-C locations are bad? I mean are they placed in a way that creates uneven stresses in the bridle? Or are they just different from industry standard?" -edt

In A15 B-C are located unusually far back. Used speedsystem is however standard 1:2:4. This means that B and C points of the wing are pulled less than normally when sheeted in. You can interpret this in two ways: 1)that part of the wing changes AoA less than normally 2)powered airfoil shape is more cambered than normally. Relatively more stress comes to Z (or less to B-C), but that is not so significant. Bar pressure must be very light because bar movement has less effect than normally.

"...psycho 4 a lot that was released in 2008 right? Is it what you would consider one of the best foil designs out there still?" -edt

If not best at least technically very advanced. I think even Psycho3 was a very good kite, not many current foilkite is better at same AR, if any. Modern racefoils and Speeds are more efficient of course and their usability is developed to tolerable level.

"Are talking about the cuben fiber hellkite? I always figured that kite was just built when they didn't know much and if they wanted to make this sort of kite with extremely thin leading edge it wouldn't be too hard to make it extremely small, maybe even an inch. How does a thicker leading edge help? can't they redesign the bridle to keep the kite stable?" -edt

If I remember correct Best used cuben fiber in LE to get it very thin. I don't know how good that kite was. New Best's I've seen have normally thick LE's. If LE is very thin it must have very high pressure to get it rigid enough and still more bridle support. Then some thin LE low drag advantage is lost and increased bridle line perhaps starts to eat away LEI simplicity.

Rigidity of a structure changes in cube of the diameter. If you half the diameter there is only one eight of stiffness left, so mechanics are against thin LE's.

Aerodynamically thin LE has lower drag. It is light weight too. However smaller or sharper LE behaves more aggressively in different AoA's, thicker and rounder LE is smoother.

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Re: Pansh Aurora2 it's here!

Postby kitexpert » Mon May 23, 2016 9:24 pm

"The simplest bridles are those that have the longest single lines. If you look at the front lines, they are a very simple bridle, a big long V." -foilholio

Ok, this was an explanation of "simple bridle to adjusting to different canopy curves" :D

Unfortunately for the earlier discussion this foilholios "bridle" has nothing to do with P4's changing PA. Or Aurora2's clumsy straight a1, b1 and c1 lines have nothing to do with guessed PA change in it.

"They have autozenith..." -foilholio

Yes they do. Would you like to explain why, in your own words?

"Certain bridle designs become fixed to a certain curve or arc." -foilholio

Very good. Who told you that :D Here certain means "used", become means "are"...

Ok, foilholio. Why don't we continue more civilized and polite manner from now on? I apologize some of my words, I really don't write in my own language and I may have a bit provocative style sometimes. :oops: :wink: :P

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Re: Pansh Aurora2 it's here!

Postby edt » Mon May 23, 2016 10:26 pm

kitexpert wrote: Yes they do. Would you like to explain why, in your own words?
I know that one at least. In an arc the center of gravity is further back, it's behind the center of lift this means that the natural tendency of the kite is to pull the opposite the way that the kite is turning, so it autozeniths. On an inflatable kite or most foils the center of gravity (because of the heavy tube) is much more forward so when you turn the kite turns more, this makes the kite unstable, and it doesn't like to stay at zenith. Which is actually good it helps the performance because it makes the kite react more when you give it an imput. I guess you could stick a heavy weight on the trailing edge of a kite and it would start to autozenith I should try that on a light wind day, tie a sandbag to the trailing edge of my Envy and see if it starts to autozenith. The rest of that stuff tho I am still trying to figure out exactly how the bridle works on a foil. I get it pretty much figured out on a regular inflatable tube kite I understand how lengthening and shortening the various parts change how the kite flies but on a foil, not so much. Lot more complicated.

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Re: Pansh Aurora2 it's here!

Postby foilholio » Tue May 24, 2016 3:02 am

kitexpert wrote: less tangling
Partially incorrect. Lack of riding experience.
kitexpert wrote: Relatively more stress comes to Z
Incorrect. lack of basic engineering understanding and some aerodynamics.
kitexpert wrote:Bar pressure must be very light because bar movement has less effect than normally.
Partially incorrect. Again engineering.
kitexpert wrote: Then some thin LE low drag advantage is lost
Partially incorrect. Lack of Aerodynamics understanding.
kitexpert wrote: However smaller or sharper LE behaves more aggressively in different AoA's, thicker and rounder LE is smoother.
Subjective BS and Incorrect. lack of experience.
kitexpert wrote: Ok, foilholio. Why don't we continue more civilized and polite manner from now on? I apologize some of my words, I really don't write in my own language and I may have a bit provocative style sometimes.
Fine. You may see there is a lot I disagree with, but that doesn't mean the rest is wrong. You make a lot of incorrect assumptions about me, which are just logical fallacies anyway. I have made a post a while ago about autozenith. You are welcome to disagree with it or offer your own explanation. I dare say that is where EDT got his explanation. I got the knowledge from Peter Lynn. Who when it comes to kites and perhaps a few other things, I hold with the upmost esteem along with some of his friends. And lastly no I am not going to offer you more explanation why you are wrong on certain things. If you care about yourself you will find that out for yourself.

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Re: Pansh Aurora2 it's here!

Postby kitexpert » Tue May 24, 2016 8:05 pm

"You may see there is a lot I disagree with, but that doesn't mean the rest is wrong." -foilholio

It is not wise to disagree generally known facts or argue against physics. Thats what you do about A15's B-C to Z loads and in LE thickness/shape matter to flying characteristics.

Your "partially incorrect" remarks are just meaningless nonsense.

You know mixers well, although much of the work you have done there is irrelevant. Current system(s) are sound and work well. Last ten years biggest invention is probably Diablo-line, but kites do very well without it. It is a small add-on. Other candidate is variable PA, not many know how it works.

Why don't you go and check P4's line plan and explain in detail why it has that remarkable feature? I can help you, no "simple bridle" stuff has nothing to do with it :wink:

"I dare say that is where EDT got his explanation." -foilholio

I dare say there is a problem in that explanation. Then why bridled kite (like C-shaped P4) does not have autozenith? It has very similar weight distribution than arc has. Your (EDT's) explanation reveals lack of knowledge about arcs.

"And lastly no I am not going to offer you more explanation why you are wrong on certain things." -foilholio

I'm not surprised by that at all :D


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