High-Y Effects

[PugetSoundKiter]

I have seen a posts about the High-Y Front Lines for LEI kites. Like the Vegas C LEI flys well on High-Y or Low-Y (North uses High-Y setup) but the Torch C LEI does not fly well on the High-Y (Naish uses Low-Y setup). I noticed about 6 years ago Ozone used a High-Y on the Open Cell Foil Frenzy-FYX and Manta kites and then HQ also on the Open Cell Foil Montana-8. Both seem to have gone back to a Low-Y setup now.

I found the 14m/12m Montana-8 uses 15.5m High-Y lines (and a 9.5m 1100# Leader line) with 25m backlines. The 8m/10m Montana-8 uses 14m High-Y lines (and a 8m 1100# Leader line) with 22m backlines. The effects of a High-Y could be similar to flying a set of four 15m lines, but this would have a small window and maybe not very clean wind?

I was interested in what people may already know and be able to share about a High-Y on foil kites. I was wondering what flying effects to look for as the front lines start getting short. I assume the projected area starts getting smaller (loosing lift) and the curvature starts getting tighter (maybe improving turning and/or stability). I suppose if the bridles are not changed they won’t be optimized for even pull/load from the new High-Y direction/angle and that may affect the camber, stiffness, depower, etc... Curious if anybody has played around with High-Y lines on 15m+ foil kites?

[corbett]

I am convinced that Y lines on all foils have been used as a cash cow by both HQ and Ozone. I can buy a set of good quality equal length lines for 45$ or I can pay HQ 120$ for their set and have to jump through hoops to buy them.

I've tried both Y and V on Montana 7 14m and Montana 5 12.5 and whilst I can see the tips coming together slightly whilst depowered due to the Y, it certainly isn't enough for me to go back to the dreadful inconvenience and expense of proprietary linesets. Neither Ozone nor HQ have stated any benefits other than reduced drag which is laughable anyway.

I own 8 kites which were intended to fly on Y and none of them do and I'm very happy. Well to say "intended" is a bit laughable, more after thought to cash in on spares.

If you want the tips to come together whilst depowered, do that via the bridle, not some bullshit custom lineset.

Didn't Ozone used to tie the speed system together thus creating a Y effect whilst still selling the kite with Y lines?

I understand that Ozone no longer sell/produce the Y lineset. What does that tell you?

[corbett]

Double post.

[corbett]

Would Foilholio like to confirm this picture? You have a Y line effect BUT the kite was still being sold with Y lines.

Mr Foilholio, it looks like you're going to have your first citizens arrest of a kite designer for fraud. You must be excited.

[PugetSoundKiter]

Yep, photo of the Frenzy FYX... I have a 9m Frenzy-FYX with 8m upper front Y-Lines, Ozone advertising said “helps the handling and again reduces drag” and added X-Lines to the bridle that “helps the handling and again reduces drag even further.” Agree lower Y-Line drag reduction is negligible and the X-Lines added to the kite probably adds even more drag. I’m sure it would fly just fine on a standard 4 line setup. Bridal tweeking is the correct way to change the wing profile, I was just wondering aloud if someone tried it the other way around. That is, tried Y-Lines on a flat foil kite to change the wing profile?

Remember PL Arc foil C kites mods that people tried center 5th lines and bow kite bridles for tension to flatten them out but it added bar pressure, lessened depower and the top end gust munching benefits of the Arcs. So, probably too many design parameters / trade-offs de-optimized when flattening-out an Arc or curving-in a flat profile foil design. Maybe I answered my own questions, quit overthinking it, buy a used Psycho4, and have a drink

[corbett]

You're quite right, Ozone did state "helps the handling". But the picture I posted from Ozone shows the speed system tied together and not the X line. Is that Ozone picture a forgery?? This is the 2011 Frenzy apparently.

[PugetSoundKiter]

Mine is an 2009 and the bridle does not look the same, the picture is a 2011 and is mentioned at 2:41 as a "Link Line"
https://www.vimeo.com/15589456

The Frenzy incorporates the “Link” line, which connects both sides of the Speed System together to maintain the correct distance between both sides of the kite. This Link line therefore controls the tension transmitted through the kite which aids stability. These improvements add to the performance of the kite in all aspects; faster smoother direct handling, more power produced throughout the speed range, better stability and more de-power than ever before.

Begs another question, does the link line to provide the High-Y pinch and allow standard line sets of equal lengths?

[corbett]

Mine is an 2009 and the bridle does not look the same, the picture is a 2011 and is mentioned at 2:41 as a "Link Line"
https://www.vimeo.com/15589456

The Frenzy incorporates the “Link” line, which connects both sides of the Speed System together to maintain the correct distance between both sides of the kite. This Link line therefore controls the tension transmitted through the kite which aids stability. These improvements add to the performance of the kite in all aspects; faster smoother direct handling, more power produced throughout the speed range, better stability and more de-power than ever before.

I apologise for bringing my obsession about Y lines into your thread, I hate them so much. I cannot view the video you posted but it seems that by simply tying the speed system together, you are replicating the inwards pull a Y line will give the bridle.

Sorry, I'll shut up and we'll see what others have to say about your question....................

[PugetSoundKiter]

...mentioned at 2:41 as a "Link Line"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFwlI-zlhEg

[Hardwater Kiter]

Y-lines IMO kinda suck. Especially if you are flying in areas where the wind are kinda junk and bowties and inverts occur occasionally. The Y-lines make recovery a real PITA and in some situations it can be dangerous.

Also, I'm not a fan of dedicated line systems. If you are away, or don't have ready access to the linesets specific to your kite and you damage a line, you're screwed.

A Y-line can help maintain a certain curvature and improve turn rate. But at the same time they restrict the amount of projected area and hinder light wind performance. They was a while there when everyone thought Y-lines were awesome and they started spec'ing them on everything. Locally, I don't know anyone who got a kite with a Y and didn't convert it to a normal V line. For light winds especially.

In regards to the Frenzy FXY. There are a few around here locally that I've seen and nobody is running Y lines on them. And the fact that Ozone stopped putting Y line nonsense on their kites seems to tell us something.