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6m suggestions

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Re: 6m suggestions

Postby Adventure Logs » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:00 pm

foilholio wrote:Are you talking about the internal straps? My p4-6 jumps awesome.
Yea the mesh lower internal strap. Backstall landing it ended up putting too much stain on the webbing and would tear. I'm not sure why my P4 6 jumps like shit. If you don't actively move the kite during the entire jump it will just drop you. Horrible upwind performance. I need to check the bridle on it but since it requires such high winds, I really don't use it much. Perhaps I've been spoiled by how the speed flies. Really reminds me of my gf's old Unity 10m without all the messy bridle lines. And of course the zipper is already frozen.

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Re: 6m suggestions

Postby foilholio » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:58 am

Flysurfer metal zips.. :angryfire: .. I have never damaged a kite reverse landing but I definitely see the potential to if you aren't soft/slow when it touches the ground. Those straps are less than 15min to fix. They always break first because the load is concentrated on them. There is a knack to repairing foils that I doubt many pro repairers know. P4-6 goes out of tune quite quickly, I had to restretch mine's bridles and add a Z mod to keep it 100%. I am also using the hard steering or WAC line on it now to engage at ABCZ even or when B is the same length as A. The kite really likes it, it makes it harder to backstall and gives more power. The pyscho4s in general like to be flown, this is because they have a thinner airfoil, inflatables with thin tubes/profile are the same. If you don't actively fly them you won't get the most. I love kites like that because they always have more windrange and are faster. Fat kites like the unity I hate.

Johhnn wrote:Well, if a Flysurfer 6 m could be anything like their Speed 4 8 m and 10 m dlx kites, I think it would be excellent. I have both the 8 and 10 and wanted to buy a 6 two years ago when I started foiling and realized I needed smaller kites. I got a Core XR3 6 m pump-up and it's really not good (for me) with the foilboard. When I'm going steady on a reach, the kite always wants to turn towards the water and I really have to concentrate on it hard to keep it level. It's a great kite when I can be on my twin tip, however. Then I really appreciate the turning speed.

I used my Speed 4 10 m dlx for about 3 seasons before it started acting funny--the wingtips droop downward when there is any depower applied. It's a sad looking thing and produces more drag than doing anything else. I wish I could rejuvenate it somehow. The 8 m which I've been using all year since February, to the exception of all other kites, is still going strong. Perhaps I have 200 hours on this kite?! Both kites are extremely stable in gusts, like tube kites really. I don't think they have the performance of the Lotus kites, but they're really great for gusty winds which I have and which is why I use them. Tried the tubes and during lulls they would just fall out of the sky. With the 8 on a hydrofoil I can ride down to about 10 knots, maybe even less, coasting through the lulls. It is a nice kite and I like it a lot.

I replaced my 10 m with a Lotus and, although I like it a lot, I have fears about stability in the long (and short) term. It's shape reminds me of my old Speed 3 12 m which was a great performing kite until it started front stalling (leading edge tips over and kite is unrecoverable). Despite many attempts at tuning it, I could never get the magic back. We'll see how the new kite holds up over time.
phpBB [video]
I think the yellow speed4 at 24 secs was a 7m prototype. I wonder what flysurfers reasons were for not continuing with the line, they are not terrible good at communicating on that type of stuff.

As to tuning? Did you restretch the bridles? Replace SPLs or Zmod?

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Re: 6m suggestions

Postby joriws » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:43 am

foilholio wrote: P4-6 goes out of tune quite quickly, I had to restretch mine's bridles and add a Z mod to keep it 100%. I am also using the hard steering or WAC line on it now to engage at ABCZ even or when B is the same length as A. The kite really likes it, it makes it harder to backstall and gives more power.
Would describe a bit more about the "Z mod"? I've similar old kite and I think I really should start working on it. Although it flies nicely I think it backstalls quite easily.
foilholio wrote:I wonder what flysurfers reasons were for not continuing with the line, they are not terrible good at communicating on that type of stuff.
Have you ever heard Osborne effect? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect

In kite world it means that if you announce kiteX version2 something like 3 months before you can actually sell it, it will stall all kite model sales. KiteX version1 - nobody will buy because version2 is coming. On market segment for kiteY, people might wait comment of kiteX version2 before buying kiteY. And there is a risk even if kiteX version2 would have problems/delays.

About continuing a product line - I think it is easy. If the kite does not sell enough to be profitable for the manufacturer.

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Re: 6m suggestions

Postby foilholio » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:22 am

Zmod. you may have missed it ,ignore the controversial title viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2392205.

To sum up the Z mod. It is merely a simple added adjustment (knot) to help the mixer correctly compensate for change in the A and Z main and the C SPL. To apply it correctly it requires some measurements and calculations. Hopefully the excel sheet and pictures can help you understand. I did feel I got a bit too complicated over the whole thing, so if you want to ask more questions like everyone else go ahead.

I have actually been thinking quite a bit about the mixer and what is the best way to adjust it. I am settling on the need for 3 adjustments. Currently I am liking these three--C main length , Z main position and C SPL stopper knot. But I have also thought about B SPL length, C SPL stopper knot and Z main position. There is no way 2 adjustments are sufficient, I have thought long about that, sad I know. The flysurfer method(2 adjustments) actually caused me a great confusion for a long time, doubly sad I know :-( one adjustment which flysurfer doesn't use and is actually more powerful and simple and strait forward is to play with the Z length or it's position ( the effective length). A change at Z is the same as changing C 1/2 and B 1/4. It's like a 2 for 1.



Yes I am aware of the Osborne effect. What happened with the old speed 4 is a bit different though as it just got pulled from the market. Flysurfer has a number of problems though. By not having a product on market they have allowed their competitors to gain, be that with foils or inflatables. Now you have plenty of old time flysurfer riders on inflatables, there is no flysurfer wave or freestyle/freeride foil kite. And you have a brand like pansh catching up and maybe even exceeding flysurfer with a kite like the A15. So I wonder who would buy a mid AR kite if flysurfer was to release one? How much effort would have it cost to scale the existing old speed4 designs? or even tweak the pyscho4? Maybe it is not flysurfer philosophy to release kites before they are 100% happy but that doesn't seem normal in the industry. Maybe they need to look at starting their own factory somewhere so they can abandon serial production and it's problems. Start offering modern on demand with a focus on quality like Switch seems to do.

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Re: 6m suggestions

Postby Johhnn » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:38 am

foilholio: Yes, I stretched the bridles and replaced the SPL's. When I last flew it, maybe 1 year ago, it was flying pretty well, but every so often the left side leading edge would tip over towards me and the kite collapse. I could recover by reaching up and yanking very hard on the opposite side steering line. I was in a safe spot behind a breakwater with just enough room to play and the wind was relatively stable. I don't feel like I want to take the kite out far from shore because of this problem. I would really like to carefully measure the line lengths, but I have to set up something with pulleys and a 5 kg weight (?) to do it right.

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Re: 6m suggestions

Postby foilholio » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:23 pm

Measuring bridles, flysurfer mentions using 5kg, this is to get a standard measurement from bridle to bridle. I think the force amount comes from paragliders who do a lot of measuring etc. In reality when you apply even as little as 1-2kg this will have the effect of restretching some very shrunk bridles mainly on the Z bridle. Getting accurate measurements from such bridles can be interesting(impossible), because you apply a force the bridle will continue to grow in length. Bridles that are restretched with a much higher force 15-30kg do not behave like that.

The setup with a weight and pulley is to restretch the bridles. If you just want to measure you can use luggage scales, you can use them to restretch too but it will be tedious, tedious like measuring them all :-)

As to your kite you have adjusted the mixer? I would try shortening B or using a Z mod to lengthen Z. The problem with adjusting B though is it will limit the depower so I would choose to lengthen Z, but limiting the depower may be a solution as well so try shortening B first. That may fix the problem but I suspect real cause is the kite canopy is becoming porous or stretched. The solution then is not so easy. I did a post on recoating the fabric viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2392469 you could try inflating the kite with the tip holes folded and pegged so they don't leak. Try observe how long the kite takes to deflate to roughly various stages. You can see the kite I did took 12mins to 50% deflate , to tips were very unstable but after recoating it it took 25mins to 50% and the flight behavior was much improved. This kite I think is much more used and worn than yours, at about 7 years old. I would think the pyscho4 and oldspeed4 would have similar issues with regards to age. Maybe the bridle layout of the oldspeed4 has a distinct disadvantage as what you are experiencing and that might be a reason flysurfer gave up on it. Hmmm.


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