Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Tuning adaptive canopy curve

For all foil kite riders


Johhnn
Frequent Poster
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:05 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: Pine Point
Favorite Beaches: P-town Harbor, Manzanillo del Mar
Style: Freeride
Gear: FS: S4 8 m DLX, S4 Lotus 10 and 12 m, Sonic 2 15 m
Core: XR3 6 and 12 m
FS: FlyRadical M
AlpineFoil 5.0 Ti Ultimate Hydrofoil with RX-V5S board
Brand Affiliation: None
Contact:

Re: Tuning adaptive canopy curve

Postby Johhnn » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:29 pm

logsdon:
The problem came on very rapidly, say within a few hours. In total the kite has 154 hours on it.

I backstall land my kite almost every time, but the wind is light so it is almost always very easy. I've never really had a bad landing with this kite.

The internal mesh is torn in each cell. It was this way from the beginning. I read somewhere else that it is made this way. This is true, so far as I can tell.

The bar pressure has remained about the same.

Nemo:
I will contact Flysurfer and see if they can help.

User avatar
Adventure Logs
Frequent Poster
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:18 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: The world
Favorite Beaches: Durban, SA
Corpus Christi
Gear: Flysurfer Physco 4, Speed 4 Lotus, Sonic 1+2
Flysurfer Flysplit M, L
Nobile T5
Nobile Infinity Split with Zen Foil, NHP Carbon Split
Slightshot hoverglide
Brand Affiliation: None
Contact:

Re: Tuning adaptive canopy curve

Postby Adventure Logs » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:14 pm

Johhnn wrote:logsdon:
The problem came on very rapidly, say within a few hours. In total the kite has 154 hours on it.

I backstall land my kite almost every time, but the wind is light so it is almost always very easy. I've never really had a bad landing with this kite.

The internal mesh is torn in each cell. It was this way from the beginning. I read somewhere else that it is made this way. This is true, so far as I can tell.

The bar pressure has remained about the same.

Nemo:
I will contact Flysurfer and see if they can help.
Mine tore after a very gentle backstall landing once. Look to see if it tore all the way through. It should be obvious. I think that when you backstall these series of Speeds, it puts too much strain on that webbing. Like I said, mine was acting that way, and it ended up being the mesh.

User avatar
Adventure Logs
Frequent Poster
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:18 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: The world
Favorite Beaches: Durban, SA
Corpus Christi
Gear: Flysurfer Physco 4, Speed 4 Lotus, Sonic 1+2
Flysurfer Flysplit M, L
Nobile T5
Nobile Infinity Split with Zen Foil, NHP Carbon Split
Slightshot hoverglide
Brand Affiliation: None
Contact:

Re: Tuning adaptive canopy curve

Postby Adventure Logs » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:43 pm

Also mine mesh wasn't torn on every cell. It was one long piece that was sewed at every cell.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1843
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Tuning adaptive canopy curve

Postby foilholio » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:25 am

Johhnn wrote:OK. Now my 8m dlx is flying with floppy ears all the time, unless fully powered up. Basically an inverted U shape going through the sky. I have adjusted the mixer to have the B lines 1.25 inches longer. Next time there is wind, I will test fly and report back.
Making B longer will make it worse you want to shorten it.
Johhnn wrote: This kite is very well used. I would have to add up the hours, but perhaps more than 200. It has landed in the saltwater many times, but I have rinsed it. None of the crashes were hard ones. The fabric seems to be in very good shape, really clean, almost crisp like new. Aside from a lot of use, I take care of my kites carefully, drying them out indoors after each session and rinsing them occasionally in fresh water. I wax the SPL's after each session and therefore have not had to replace them.
200hours is nothing. I have done 10x on a kite. yes it was fucked. Washing the kite may damage the fabric. Drying it is fine as long as it is indoors like you say, it is the sun that kills the fabric. If the kite is left wet with fresh water mold will rapidly grow, best not rinse the kite unless you need to for like sewing or something. Wet with salt water usually takes months before mold starts but it will still grow with salt water. I once left a kite wet(salt water) for 6 months and no mold, another time I left one for 3 months and the fuc.ker got covered in mold. So it is hard to predict.
Nem0 wrote:PMA = Profil Momentum Adjuster

@Johhnn: please contact werkstatt@flysurfer.de to get a manual for solving your problem!
thanks expecting people to just know brand new flysurfer acronyms is a bit much. I see why it would be called that, but simply calling them Profile Adjustments would be sufficient. I wonder where they heard about them , foilzone perhaps? :-) A little credit would be nice. Peter Lynn is the master though hehe.

If flysurfer has a write up on doing them I don't see why they can't just publish them on their site. It is quite valuable information and applicable to all foils but particularly the Projected Area change kites like this and the psycho 4, due to the way flysurfer creates the C shape, changes in the fabric affect it. But this is also a particular problem for ARCs and could be used for modifying any foil really.
logsdon wrote:Did you notice this gradually happening or just one day you noticed it? Do you backstall land the kite much? Check the webbing inside the trailing edge. My 10 dlx acted like this after the internal webbing tore. Happened on three different occasions. Is the bar pressure heavier as well? Put the kite up to the light and inspect the mesh.
Yes rips will do bad stuff, look for puffiness in flight, or try pulling the cell rib apart from the top and bottom skin, it shouldn't move.

Looks like that could be the problem. Have fun fixing it :-) If the internals are like the unity there is no holes to get through the kite and you'll need to open each cell seam, one to the next etc, opening the trailing edge is even more work so I never do that unless I must. And sewing mesh is a pain too. I blame Gunnar because this appeared at flysurfer when he appeared and it's a Peterlynn construction method, he worked for Peterlynn. I think it could work but obviously the mesh isn't strong enough, ARCs don't reverse land either. I have suggested to flysurfer before and I will do it again that they use a looser weave fabric on the cell walls/ribs. One would think they could get a special run of fabric they use so much. Maybe they have tested it already and it's not great but I would think the giant holes aren't the best either.
Last edited by foilholio on Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Johhnn
Frequent Poster
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:05 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: Pine Point
Favorite Beaches: P-town Harbor, Manzanillo del Mar
Style: Freeride
Gear: FS: S4 8 m DLX, S4 Lotus 10 and 12 m, Sonic 2 15 m
Core: XR3 6 and 12 m
FS: FlyRadical M
AlpineFoil 5.0 Ti Ultimate Hydrofoil with RX-V5S board
Brand Affiliation: None
Contact:

Re: Tuning adaptive canopy curve

Postby Johhnn » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:29 pm

Thank you for the feedback.

logsdon: Those rips in the mesh fabric are put there intentionally, I believe. Every cell has it, in exactly the same place. I think it is to allow the kite to maintain the same profile across the chord. The rips go from bottom surface to top surface. What was the orientation of your rips? I will take and post a picture if it would be useful.

foilholio: Yes, I see it now that I think about it. I will shorten B.

Kite's got 154 hours on it. Fabric is definitely good. Slight evidence of delamination at a small place near either drainage hole, but nowhere else. Even though I rinsed it, the water was still salty. It really needed to be rinsed, IMHO. I'm familiar with the effects of mold and mildew. I ruined a backpack once because the mildew got to it and caused the fabric to delaminate from the coating. Anyhow, kite has had another dip in the sea, so it's a moot point. I store it dry and salty.

User avatar
Adventure Logs
Frequent Poster
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:18 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: The world
Favorite Beaches: Durban, SA
Corpus Christi
Gear: Flysurfer Physco 4, Speed 4 Lotus, Sonic 1+2
Flysurfer Flysplit M, L
Nobile T5
Nobile Infinity Split with Zen Foil, NHP Carbon Split
Slightshot hoverglide
Brand Affiliation: None
Contact:

Re: Tuning adaptive canopy curve

Postby Adventure Logs » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:55 pm

I'll look through my computer to see if I took any pictures but this was a couple years ago. The damage was pretty obvious to me when I saw it, I think it was in the center of the kite. It could very possibly be that your kite is sewn up differently than mine. Flysurfer have been known to make slight internal changes on the same kite(The later produced lotuses had a reinforced strap due to a common problem with the earlier gens.)


Foilholio, where can I get info on the P4 mod? Might make me like mine more.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1843
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Tuning adaptive canopy curve

Postby foilholio » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:04 pm

Which mod are we talking about? Or what do you want to fix or change?


I am actually planing to retune my Psycho4s. After fiddling with the Genesis ,and a few other things, my understanding of the bridles/kites is much better. I should be able to get a higher camber while keeping them stable. Psycho4s normally go berserk like jakemores Speed4 if too much camber is set.
Last edited by foilholio on Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Adventure Logs
Frequent Poster
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:18 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: The world
Favorite Beaches: Durban, SA
Corpus Christi
Gear: Flysurfer Physco 4, Speed 4 Lotus, Sonic 1+2
Flysurfer Flysplit M, L
Nobile T5
Nobile Infinity Split with Zen Foil, NHP Carbon Split
Slightshot hoverglide
Brand Affiliation: None
Contact:

Re: Tuning adaptive canopy curve

Postby Adventure Logs » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:16 pm

foilholio wrote:Which mod are we talking about? Or what do you want to fix or change?


I am actually planing to retune my Psycho4s. After fiddling with the Genesis ,and a few other things, my understanding of the bridles/kites is much better. I should be able to get a higher camber while keeping them stable. Psycho4s normally go berserk like jakemores Speed4 if too much camber is set.
I looked back and found it, the Z mod. Sounds pretty easy. I just want to get a little bit more glide and power out of it. Way too much of a gap between my Lotus 10m and it than there should be I think.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1843
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Tuning adaptive canopy curve

Postby foilholio » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:34 pm

first pic here is basically it viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2392205
Image

Well glide is usually flatter/low camber, power or lift is more curve or higher camber. Have you tried setting to high bar pressure? Set the WAC(hard soft ) line so A lines up with B or even make A a tad shorter than B. This will give you a low and high camber combined. From that first link measure your C SPL and A and Z main difference and use the Z mod to correct for them. The kite will have more depower then. Evening your front lines may help as well viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2391081.

I will let you know if I can tune them better. They do like a good bridle stretch viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2392935.

Maybe for the reason mention in the first link the lotus10 has lost some depower too. That would affect the gap between them. My p4 10 and 6 have about 10knots cross over. Depends how I want to ride to which I choose.

User avatar
jakemoore
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:59 am
Kiting since: 2004
Gear: Ozones and Flysurfers
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Oleander
Contact:

Re: Tuning adaptive canopy curve

Postby jakemoore » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:32 am

So I have some satisfaction by extending the Z as foilholio suggested. I did this by adding a small segment between Z-Main and BR1 and BR2. I selectively lengthened BR2, which connects the outer 4 break lines. I am thinking with the bar pulled in, there is not enough reflex in the tips, and extending BR2 is more effective than shortening B because of backstall. There is a slight loss in turn speed but not bad.

I can't say its perfect yet. I think some of the problem may be low air pressure in the tips. I am considering adding leading edge battons. As present on the rest of the LE. Weed Eater Line? How to attach?
Speed4_8_Z_mod.jpg


Return to “Foil Kites”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron