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Concept Air Smart Wave 6.5 & 4.5 & 3

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jakemoore
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Re: Concept Air Smart Wave 6.5 & 4.5 & 3

Postby jakemoore » Fri May 04, 2018 7:50 pm

Can we create a subform for Foilholio and kitexpert to debate themselves? I'd like to learn more about the Smart Waves.

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Re: Concept Air Smart Wave 6.5 & 4.5 & 3

Postby kitexpert » Fri May 04, 2018 9:36 pm

More than debating I'm just trying to correct or hint there is something weird in explanations like "hot air balloon effect", "high inertia", or "most rigid" (?) for making biggest foil kites drift best, according to foilholio .. Or is he just trolling me? If so he has had some success I must admit :)

------

Wave seems to be a simple 16 cell very low aspect kite. It has quite a lot spanwise strapping and apparently LE stiffeners like other ConceptAir kites. Bridle seems to be on every rib but it is ok because cell count is so low and excessive drag is not a problem for intended use. Even cell count is a bit suspicious choice like two air intakes side by side in the center, but these are just details. Because there is no clear pictures or lineplan available (as usual for ConceptAir kites) difficult to say more.

It is kind of funny people here wonder if that kind of kite drifts well or is it stable enough - I dare to say yes it does and yes it is.To make unstable kite for that shape is difficult task. I made a 6m AR4 kite about ten years ago - it was so stable it never collapsed, not even once. I used it several years and I still have it. Drawback compared to normal kites is super stable kites are of lower performance.

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Re: Concept Air Smart Wave 6.5 & 4.5 & 3

Postby jakemoore » Fri May 04, 2018 10:05 pm

I thought the Smart was unstable in the tips by design, in spite of its low aspect. Maybe KiteXpert would grace us with a CAD that explains how this works? Also would helium help more than the hot air balloon effect? :rollgrin:

Stability is an axis in the multi dimensional space that defines performance. So are turning speed, depower, upwind, lift, relaunch and drift.

If the waves go downwind near the wind speed it becomes less about drift and more about flying the kite actively back into the wind window.

I want more video from Blanc and Goffinet!! (and Dorithee as well)

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Re: Concept Air Smart Wave 6.5 & 4.5 & 3

Postby foilholio » Fri May 04, 2018 11:29 pm

You don't need to fly the kite to surf waves with a kite. If you ride downwind as fast as the wind, you build slack in your lines and the kite drops. If you go faster than the wind you go under your kite. What a kite does in these situations defines drift for me.

The rigidity, weight which can be partly negated by hot air, balance, canopy shape, and inertia all play a part in how well a kite handles slack lines. If someone was not to see that then I could simply say their experience is not sufficient to understand it properly.

I would say flying a kite while surfing a wave is detrimental to the experience, but it is a personal thing though, and using a kite in addition to the wave is something new and unique too. Using a kite to catch waves in either case will have you riding more waves in 1 year than a surfer could catch in a lifetime. It makes me pause and think to consider if I should ever mention anything about kiting to other surfers, lest I sooner lose the relatively uncrowded nature of surf kiting. :-) :-)

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Re: Concept Air Smart Wave 6.5 & 4.5 & 3

Postby kitexpert » Fri May 04, 2018 11:40 pm

I don't know how Smart is designed and why wingtips should be unstable. They seem like they are at very low AoA.

Image

That one I know is extremely stable. Stability is mostly due to airfoil and some other things. Also some difficulties of cell count 16 can be seen, I'd never design a kite with that cell count.

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Re: Concept Air Smart Wave 6.5 & 4.5 & 3

Postby foilholio » Sun May 06, 2018 3:51 am

kit expert wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:40 pm
I don't know how Smart is designed and why wingtips should be unstable. They seem like they are at very low AoA.
LOL still can't understand triple depower can you :-)
kit expert wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 11:40 pm
Also some difficulties of cell count 16 can be seen, I'd never design a kite with that cell count.
I would say some advantages of 16 cell count kite can be seen and you wouldn't know how or why such a design is made. Similar to your other criticism of Benoit's kites, "of course you wouldn't do it his way you would do it another better way". The big difference you ignore is Benoit sells unique designed kites with a deep understanding of them. You what do you sell? Chinese knock offs of other brands like you repeatedly try to doodle? And before you got fired from which brand for doing the same?

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Re: Concept Air Smart Wave 6.5 & 4.5 & 3

Postby stefFZ » Sun May 06, 2018 5:28 pm

Sombra wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:17 pm
Hi

Somebody can give me an orientation about the comparable size of a wavekite like the REO in comparison to the wave 6,5.
Does the wave drift also in the lowend of his range?
I have a REO 10 and I can foil in winds roundabout 10 knots but there is no way that the REO drifts in this winds.

Thanks a lot
Carsten
Hi Carsten. Are you on an hyrdrofoil or a standard surfboard? On an hydroifoil, I would take a pulsion 9m that drifts very well even in low winds. A friend of mine is starting around 9 knots to-75kg- and I think I start at around 12 knots on a standard surfboard (63 kg).

The Wave 6.5, I think I start at around 15-18 knots with a good surfboard that does not "push too much water".

Stef

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Re: Concept Air Smart Wave 6.5 & 4.5 & 3

Postby kitexpert » Sun May 06, 2018 7:28 pm

foilholio wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 3:51 am
LOL still can't understand triple depower can you :-)
:D Funny because I explained it to you earlier. Wasn't it one third of it was a bit difficult to you?
foilholio wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 3:51 am
I would say some advantages of 16 cell count kite can be seen and you wouldn't know how or why such a design is made. Similar to your other criticism of Benoit's kites, "of course you wouldn't do it his way you would do it another better way". The big difference you ignore is Benoit sells unique designed kites with a deep understanding of them. You what do you sell? Chinese knock offs of other brands like you repeatedly try to doodle? And before you got fired from which brand for doing the same?
:lol: There is no special advantage to have a 16 cells, but some less than optimal things comes with it. I guess you foilholio don't have a clue? BTW there is a design program which don't allow even cell counts at all... I'm not saying ConceptAir kites are not good kites and because they are tailored for some specific uses it makes them more interesting than many other kites. But like I have written earlier to make kite lighter using a light weight material is not very much of a design achievement and even less is to design simple bridles with excessive line. Also to have stability issues for kite with that shape does not sound very assuring.

If only I had some clear pictures of these kites I could publish here in 15 minutes from that moment an improved bridle (actually I already did, or does someone disagree design above is more sophisticated (cleaner, lower drag etc) than original Smart bridle?), with nice clean look and 20-30%, even 50% less line drag. But if kite has clumsy cell count or stupid line attachment points (like some Pansh kites) there is limited possibilities to improve them easily.

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Re: Concept Air Smart Wave 6.5 & 4.5 & 3

Postby Peert » Sun May 06, 2018 8:31 pm

jakemoore wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 7:50 pm
Can we create a subform for Foilholio and kitexpert to debate themselves? I'd like to learn more about the Smart Waves.
A subform or subforum?
I would propose to do a fundraiser to bring the two together at some quite place (a monastery or something) to debate a week long on kite design. We put some webcams with them and create a livestream so can enjoy the wisdom they share.

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Re: Concept Air Smart Wave 6.5 & 4.5 & 3

Postby foilholio » Mon May 07, 2018 6:11 am

ROFL Peert top post.


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