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Slingshot Foil Kite (is it really an Elf?) Update: Yes, it's an Elf

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Mossy 757
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Re: Slingshot Foil Kite (is it really an Elf?)

Postby Mossy 757 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:23 pm

socommk23 wrote:
foilholio wrote:Mossy you should try it against a WAC line one day and also combined, that is crazy.
socommk23 wrote:2lb lighter but 50%stronger........carbonfibre!

Anyhow....

Im yet to try the camber change feature and will endevour to but in kite buggying im yet to find a situation it can be used without backstalling it. The only time i can imagine is to power up while turning a point to downwind. But i dont think it will work to sustain high speed down wind.
Just a fast kite and flying it right does that just fine.
You are talking about the diablo line? Increasing camber reduces stall, so you can sheetin further before the kite will stall, lift increases as well like that. More lift and a lower stall point mean the wing will fly in less wind, like when riding downwind... so it rides better downwind. I believe the downwind leg improvement of such mods is the reason they are used in racing.
This i dont understand.

Increasing camber would increase lift, an increase in lift increases drag. This would surely bring the stalling point to a lower speed. Therefore can not reduce stall.
I have had the kite fly above my head and used the camber change and it will stall as you pull the bar in before the brakes are on. Surely this is just aoa and boundary layer separation. For some reason i cant get my head around increasing camber being usefull for extreme down wing angles.

Can anyone do a sketch to enlighten me?
I can't explain it eloquently but it's basically a VMG thing, hence why speed equipment looks very different than course racing at the moment. Since you can increase your camber, you can create a sufficient increase in lift (with commensurate drag) at deeper polars aka lower apparent wind speeds. Because you can keep tension on your front lines and go much deeper, it's a faster path to the leward mark (gate).

That being said, the R1V2 doesn't have a Diablo or WAC setup and it sails the deepest angles at the fastest speeds of any kite on the course, so whatever Ozone has done with their bridle tuning they've somehow created the same performance increase you might expect from a drastic increase in camber without needing a 6-4:2:1 mixer setup like Elf and F-One. Flysurfer initially talked about putting something similar on the Sonic2 but then very quickly issued a press release that they didn't think the added complexity in the speed system and risk of instability was justified by the marginal performance improvement that's very specific to course racing only.

Who knows...I think a properly designed kite shouldn't need the added drag/weight of more pulleys and lines in the speed system, and the R1V2 has proven such. That being said, I do enjoy the feeling of letting the trimmer all the way out and engaging 6:2:1 ratios and blasting downwind, it's definitely a noticeable difference compared to previous generations of the Elf Joker, imho.

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Re: Slingshot Foil Kite (is it really an Elf?)

Postby foilholio » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:39 am

I'll explain it simply that it's like gravity. We don't know much past the math to predict some of it's effects. You just need to accept that is what it does. Anyway I will try explain this camber stall thing as I can. First I think you are confusion drag with stalling. Stall is a sudden large loss or decrease in lift, the upwards force, and drag is the force to the rear. You can't have an increase in lift and be stalling :-) So then yes onto separation, it causes drag ( one cause) and stalling, I see why you are focused on the two. I think separation maybe is key to understanding this. The more curved,smooth, gradual lines of a cambered wing vs the straighter lines on a less cambered wing I think would be less likely to cause separation. I also think they would be more likely to preserve the speed of the air they are deflecting at the angle they are deflecting it. Deflection is also important, it's a simple way to understand how wings make lift. A high camber wing especially with a very aggressive TE angled down will deflect more air down, and air down=wing up :-)


BTW I thought we were talking about the Diablo, now it's R1V2 and the Joker??? Yes there are ways to increase camber other than using a different mixer, you can change it's settings or attach the bridles more rearward. Of the various mixers though( 631,621,diabloline and WAC) the WAC is the simplest.

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bigwave
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Re: Slingshot Foil Kite (is it really an Elf?)

Postby bigwave » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:01 am


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pndLA
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Re: Slingshot Foil Kite (is it really an Elf?)

Postby pndLA » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:12 pm

Bildschirmfoto 2017-02-27 um 14.11.31.png

socommk23
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Re: Slingshot Foil Kite (is it really an Elf?)

Postby socommk23 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:06 pm

pndLA wrote:Bildschirmfoto 2017-02-27 um 14.11.31.png
God that kite is ugly.
Skyline of a london council estate.

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Re: Slingshot Foil Kite (is it really an Elf?)

Postby kiterocky » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:19 pm

Shitshot

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Re: Slingshot Foil Kite (is it really an Elf?)

Postby Adventure Logs » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:47 pm

socommk23 wrote:
pndLA wrote:Bildschirmfoto 2017-02-27 um 14.11.31.png
God that kite is ugly.
Skyline of a london council estate.
Agreed. Give them time though, FLYSURFER is well known for ugly fouls. Only lately have they gotten better looking.

socommk23
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Re: Slingshot Foil Kite (is it really an Elf?)

Postby socommk23 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:38 pm

Plus peter lynn has a kite called the phantom. Is it me or are some companies just jumping on the band wagon with little thought to any of it?

First north with a gross city skyline design and named the same as a Pansh kite the Ace.
Now slingshot with aweful graphics and no original name.

Mossy 757
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Re: Slingshot Foil Kite (is it really an Elf?)

Postby Mossy 757 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:52 pm

socommk23 wrote: Is it me or are some companies just jumping on the band wagon with little thought to any of it?
That's business in general...Apple made a bagillion dollars a decade ago by selling an iPod that makes phone calls, now everyone and their brother make smartphones.

I think companies are gambling that people would rather stay "on brand" with their favorite kite company and try something new versus leave their brand to get on board with a more foil-kite specific company. In that sense, their foil kite doesn't need to be that good, just good enough that Slingshot customers never feel the need to test drive an Ozone or a Flysurfer.

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bigwave
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Re: Slingshot Foil Kite (is it really an Elf?)

Postby bigwave » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:04 pm

Mossy 757 wrote:
socommk23 wrote: Is it me or are some companies just jumping on the band wagon with little thought to any of it?
That's business in general...Apple made a bagillion dollars a decade ago by selling an iPod that makes phone calls, now everyone and their brother make smartphones.

I think companies are gambling that people would rather stay "on brand" with their favorite kite company and try something new versus leave their brand to get on board with a more foil-kite specific company. In that sense, their foil kite doesn't need to be that good, just good enough that Slingshot customers never feel the need to test drive an Ozone or a Flysurfer.
Well, it seems when you get the right people to build and design your kite it can not only satisfy your customers but also can raise the bar so the so called leaders have to up their game. Just ask F-One


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