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Flysurfer sonic Race

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gwicke
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Re: Flysurfer sonic Race

Postby gwicke » Thu May 25, 2017 4:54 pm

The sonic race looks like the logical next step in adopting developments from paragliding. Paragliding wings with three bridles (A,B,Z) are known as "two liners", and have dominated competitions for a while now. They became possible with increased rigidity especially in the nose section, as well as increased cell counts overall. They are known to be very stable, but when they collapse in strong turbulence they do so quite violently, and with little warning. This should not matter much for water kites, so I don't see much of a downside at all. I would expect other water kites to follow soon.

Another feature that became popular in paragliders is a "shark nose", a depression on the under side of the nose section, with vents reduced in size and moved back into this depression. The idea is that the stagnation point and thus ideal location for vents remains fairly fixed across the AoA range, allowing for reliable inflation with small vents away from the aerodynamically important area in the front & top of the nose. From what I can tell, this feature has not been adopted in the sonic race. I wonder if this is a conscious decision, or just something left for later.
Last edited by gwicke on Thu May 25, 2017 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mossy 757
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Re: Flysurfer sonic Race

Postby Mossy 757 » Thu May 25, 2017 5:35 pm

gwicke wrote:
Thu May 25, 2017 4:54 pm
I wonder if this is a conscious decision, or just something left for later.
It'd be interesting to hear those design conversations, like, "yeah we can do this but let's save it for version 2..."

foilholio
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Re: Flysurfer sonic Race

Postby foilholio » Fri May 26, 2017 2:07 am

Horst Sergio wrote:
Thu May 25, 2017 10:27 am
I am not 100% sure as I just had a short look on the beach but from experience and what I remember it's constructed like this:
The middle "B" level is on the first 1:2 pulley (as flysurfer has also done it on the nearly 3 level bridle of the old speed 4 normal (not lotus))
The two extra pulleys on each side are 1:4 and 1:8 and are just connected to the tips to give them a clean support without gabs, which can cause wrinkles on the tips of kites with just a 1:2:4 mixer.

Also older Flysurfer kites as the speed 2 and psycho 3 had extra levels on the tips to have less wrinkles but they used so called ring lines, so a small steel ring on the connection point that worked like a pulley but had the problem that the wear and shortening of the ring line was pretty fast. So not totally new but a new way to solve an old problem. And this 1:8 point is not just moving alone but spreads the forces via the inner structure of the kite into the tips. I think that's what they want to say :D

If you look at the pictures the canopy looks really smooth everywhere and especially also on the tips where most foil kites don't.
So what you are saying is the mixer is a regular 421 with an extra pulley on the front to give 8421 (Edit I see in the PDF manual that is what it is). B is connected at the center to the 1/2 ratio then maybe at the third line it's on the 1/4 ratio, then at the tip the 1/8 ratio?

I know the ring lines on the pyscho3 and feel this is a little different.


Horst Sergio wrote: I asked my self if future race kites could be 6 liners (flying lines) as the libre radical2 is.

By the way has anybody a picture of the whole mixer of the radical2, as I am thinking to adept its 2 trimmer system to my ozone chrono and want to see how they solved it?

The disadvantage of a 6 liner 3 level bridle kite is for sure the two extra lines but as they're getting always shorter and can be a bit thinner than 4 lines the extra drag shouldn't be a no go.

The advantages would be that you can bring the mixer down to the bar where you can combine it with a 2 trimmer system that allows you to actively change and increase camber depending on wind situation or course as the extra pulleys on the fone Diablo do when totally sheeted in. Another advantage is absolutely no mixer pulleys in the bridle similar as on the old FS extacy or rookie. Another advantage could be a good B line stall safety.

Not sure if worth to use, but maybe worth to try.
I postulated a 6 line 2 trimmer system when first discussing the Diablo line. It would just need to divide the A main and C pulley line on to separate front mains and front lines. So it will end up with 4 front lines and front mains. 2 of the front lines are basically extended A mains and the other 2 front lines extend C pulley line connections. You could have them on separate trimmers and you actively change the camber on the kite.

The advantage is probably really good for Foil Boards. You could let out the C Trimmer and make high camber on the kite for water starts and going down wind, you could then pull the C trimmer in reducing power and improve L/D for better upwind.

This assumes the trimmers are set a certain way as there is a few ways you could setup the trimmers on a 6 line. You could adjust both A and C together for front vs rear line adjustment. Then you could either adjust A or C for camber change. Or you could trim both independently, changing both front rear line and camber with either. Or you could adjust the rear lines like with that new North bar and then either A or C for camber.
Mossy 757 wrote:
Thu May 25, 2017 3:37 pm
I think the trick now with race kites if figuring out how to get them into a perfect trim "mode" for both upwind and downwind performance. When you setup a kite to kick ass downwind, you do a lot of stuff to it that makes it suck upwind - and vice versa.
This what the 6 line system described above can do. Something like a WAC line can somewhat achieve these goals too, but 6 line will always have better camber trim.

gwicke
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Re: Flysurfer sonic Race

Postby gwicke » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:26 am

I had a closer look at the Sonic Race bridle today. For anything but the tips, A is connected straight to the front lines, B is on 1:4. and Z is straight on the backlines. A, B, Z are attached close to equidistant, with Z fairly far (~25cm) forward, near the front of the miniribs. With B on 1:4 rather than the linear 1:2, this means that camber changes significantly over the sheeting range. This should enable a fairly large trim range. For racing, this would translate into low drag and high stability upwind, and extra power downwind. A very elegant solution, which also avoids the disadvantage of longer bar travel of 6:2:1 mixers on more conventional four-level bridles.

In the narrow tips, A is on 1:8, and Z is 1:2. This keeps the tips at a similar angle as the main wing across the trim / sheeting range despite the short chord length, avoiding tip stalls & unnecessarily high induced drag when sheeted in, as well as nervous tips when depowered.

Combined with the high aspect ratio, moderate weight, reduced bridle drag, and solid materials and internal structures, I really like what Benni Boelli and Flysurfer have done here. On paper, this might be the most advanced race kite to date.

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Re: Flysurfer sonic Race

Postby socommk23 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:33 pm

gwicke wrote:
Thu May 25, 2017 4:54 pm

Another feature that became popular in paragliders is a "shark nose", a depression on the under side of the nose section, with vents reduced in size and moved back into this depression. The idea is that the stagnation point and thus ideal location for vents remains fairly fixed across the AoA range, allowing for reliable inflation with small vents away from the aerodynamically important area in the front & top of the nose. From what I can tell, this feature has not been adopted in the sonic race. I wonder if this is a conscious decision, or just something left for later.
Not sure this will ever apply. Paragliders are open cell.....important for certain flight conditions and recovery of them. Next step for closed cell kites would be just seal it completely and make them inflatable. Ultra rigid. Ultra aerodynamic.

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Re: Flysurfer sonic Race

Postby ozchrisb » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:08 am

gwicke wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:26 am
I had a closer look at the Sonic Race bridle today. For anything but the tips, A is connected straight to the front lines, B is on 1:4. and Z is straight on the backlines. A, B, Z are attached close to equidistant, with Z fairly far (~25cm) forward, near the front of the miniribs. With B on 1:4 rather than the linear 1:2, this means that camber changes significantly over the sheeting range. This should enable a fairly large trim range. For racing, this would translate into low drag and high stability upwind, and extra power downwind. A very elegant solution, which also avoids the disadvantage of longer bar travel of 6:2:1 mixers on more conventional four-level bridles.

In the narrow tips, A is on 1:8, and Z is 1:2. This keeps the tips at a similar angle as the main wing across the trim / sheeting range despite the short chord length, avoiding tip stalls & unnecessarily high induced drag when sheeted in, as well as nervous tips when depowered.

Combined with the high aspect ratio, moderate weight, reduced bridle drag, and solid materials and internal structures, I really like what Benni Boelli and Flysurfer have done here. On paper, this might be the most advanced race kite to date.
I want to see one of these up close! :)

gwicke
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Re: Flysurfer sonic Race

Postby gwicke » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:56 am

Thanks to a friend I got to try out an 11m Sonic Race today. Conditions were fairly gusty 15-25 knots. I was on a race foil & 12m lines.

Compared to the 11m Diablo 2 I usually ride (and used back-to-back today), I found the Sonic to be a lot easier to handle. The slightly higher arc makes it turn very easily. While I sometimes have to turn my Diablo fairly hard to avoid getting too close to the water on the short lines, the Sonic stayed consistently high & turned smoothly without tip tucks. The kite seems to keep its lift for a very long time in transitions, making tacks and jibes especially easy. After switching back to the Diablo 2, I had to remind myself to properly time the tack & kick the board a bit to get enough lift. On the Sonic, it didn't really matter.

Bar pressure increases noticeably (but not overly) when the Z bridle engages. When sheeting in with Z engaged, the back 2/5 of the profile is cambered progressively harder. Downwind, this provides a lot of grunt, and makes it relatively easy to go deep in gusty conditions, and with relatively little risk of stalling. Compared to the Diablo 2 "turbo" mode, the Sonic cambering offers a lot more lift without increasing the drag unduly. The Diablo turbo is working a fairly small trailing edge flap. High flap angles add a lot of drag, without adding a lot more lift. The much bigger "flap" on the Sonic doesn't need large deflections to add a lot of grunt. It is also accessible with a shorter bar stroke, for example when accelerating out of a tack.

Overall I am very impressed with how Flysurfer managed to combine great lift / drag from the high aspect ratio and clean bridle with such smooth handling. Seems like an improvements on all fronts.

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Re: Flysurfer sonic Race

Postby Mossy 757 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:57 pm

gwicke wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:56 am
Seems like an improvements on all fronts.
That's a rarity in product development!

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Re: Flysurfer sonic Race

Postby mig27 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:49 pm

I love my Sonic2 11.4, but this sounds like the holy grail of Flysurfer, while the Sonic2 is already a very good racekite!

Looking at the pricetag and that of it's competitors (R1V2, Diablo2...) it looks like a very special niche product for serious racers only

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Re: Flysurfer sonic Race

Postby socommk23 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:02 pm

mig27 wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:49 pm
I love my Sonic2 11.4, but this sounds like the holy grail of Flysurfer, while the Sonic2 is already a very good racekite!

Looking at the pricetag and that of it's competitors (R1V2, Diablo2...) it looks like a very special niche product for serious racers only
The race is the third iteration and the others are on their 3rd iterations too. V2 is so last season.


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