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Pansh Aurora II 10m - one item off bucket list

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Regis-de-giens
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Re: Pansh Aurora II 10m - one item off bucket list

Postby Regis-de-giens » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:14 am

Be careful with FS comparision because it depends on the manufacturer briding plan. In other word , the original length of the Z briddles vs A B C may be different between pansh and FS = for example maybe a flat cambre requires to align knots on FS while it requires to have longuer Z on Pansh. Just an exemple, as I have not compared their briddle plan , but it is better to set it with your feeling raher than knots alignments IMO.

Overall, if you extend Z (i.e. Z connection will be more close to the kite), you will gain stability but loss agility in turns. Wind sweet spot will be in higher winds (less low end but better high end). When extending Z you may have to compensate a bit the AoA by un-trimming the kite or add equivalent extensions on rear line connection.
Last edited by Regis-de-giens on Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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oldkiter
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Re: Pansh Aurora II 10m - one item off bucket list

Postby oldkiter » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:49 pm

Thanks Regis.

I put the video on primarily for reference since I can't post pics.

I laid out the kite and bar/lines to recheck things and confirm no crossing of bridles.

Measured both sides of bridles front and rears. Both are apx 17 cm shorter on the rear (Z) bridle sections ( the last section leading to "mixer" areas).

I've added extensions which will increase the rears (Z) by apx 12 cm, then will test in hopefully 10-15 knots, and make any necessary adjustments from there. Just trying to make kite comfortable flying and not too "backstalling".

Aim is to also get best lengths for looping - mostly downloops.

Still plan on using the 55cm mutant bar with 18m temporary lines.

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Pansh Aurora II 10m - one item off bucket list

Postby Regis-de-giens » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:30 pm

I am sorry I read again my post and noticed that I inverted ... so i corrected the post in blot characters, that i advise you to read again : Extending (And not shorten) Z will provide more stability and less agility (And range transfered to higher winds)

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Pansh Aurora II 10m - one item off bucket list

Postby Regis-de-giens » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:33 pm

For backstalling you should trim and/or shorten Z.
For frontstalling you should extend Z (Make Z longer)

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oldkiter
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Re: Pansh Aurora II 10m - one item off bucket list

Postby oldkiter » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:18 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:33 pm
For backstalling you should trim and/or shorten Z.
For frontstalling you should extend Z (Make Z longer)
Thanks again Regis.

But I want to make sure I'm not getting confused about foils kites after so many years riding LEIs.

If the foil kite is "backstalling" - either lengthen Z (rear/outside), or shorten A (front).

If foil kite is "front-stalling/overflying" - either shorten Z, or lengthen A.

Basically, just like with LEIs. I realize that there are some finer sensitivities with foils though!

I learned early to set up bars so that when pulled all the way to the CL the kite would not fall back ("back stall"). I usually setup with minor backstall for waves.

Anyway, if foil kites are the opposite I do want to understand - but I think it's basically the same with maybe more sensitivity on bar movement/sheeting.

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jakemoore
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Re: Pansh Aurora II 10m - one item off bucket list

Postby jakemoore » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:56 am

Frontstall and backstall for foil kites and tube kites are the same. LEI kites don't give the option to adjust camber. And for both LEI and foil kites, lengthening the rear lines will reduce backstall.

Regis advise is good, but has to be understood in the context of the whole kite's camber. Depending on how the A B C Z bridle inserts are spaced, sheeting the kite in and out changes not only the angle of attack but also the camber. In most cases camber will decrease and reflex will increase as you depower the bar, resulting in a less powerful and more stable profile.

If the profile is too flat, it will backstall too easily. Shorten Z is the same thing as lengthening B and C relative to A and Z. Increase camber when powered. Decrease reflex when depowered. The kite is less stable and has less backstall.

If the profile is too curved, it will frontstall to easily when depowered. Lengthen Z is same thing as shortening B and C relative to A and Z. Decrease camber when powered means more backstall. But the increased reflex makes the kite more stable.

I would not fool around with the mixer if you haven't flown a foil kite that is flying well and know what you are looking for. I would also be prepared for bridle lengths to change after you have flown the kite for a while. So I would wait until at least 10 hours of flight if you can tolerate it. And I would also exhaust adjustments on the bar/flying lines.

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Pansh Aurora II 10m - one item off bucket list

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:31 pm

you're right jakemoore : camber can change a bit when sheeting in (depending on kite design and final bridles locations and number of pulleys) , but overall the mixer is actually here to avoid too much (or "masterized") camber evolution (compared to 4 line power kites with no speed system where the camber is highly impacted) ; but to keep this topic understandable for a foilkite beginner I suggest we first keep focused on the request as understand it = how the setting of the existing mixer ( SPEED SYSTEM) can impact zenith stability and backstall.
oldkiter wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:18 pm
Thanks again Regis.

But I want to make sure I'm not getting confused about foils kites after so many years riding LEIs.

If the foil kite is "backstalling" - either lengthen Z (rear/outside), or shorten A (front).
No : shorten Z ;
Shorten A also works but I recommend not to do it that way since it could impact wrongly B vs C (not going into too much details but dependending on where the B SPL is attached on the mixer test), while touching Z keeps a more common evolution of B (1/4) vs C (1/2)
oldkiter wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:18 pm
If foil kite is "front-stalling/overflying" - either shorten Z, or lengthen A.
No : lengthen Z ;
lengthen A also works but I recommend not to do it that way since it impacts wrongly B vs C (same reason)
oldkiter wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:18 pm
I learned early to set up bars so that when pulled all the way to the CL the kite would not fall back ("back stall"). I usually setup with minor backstall for waves.
that is a good tip if you are confortable with this backstall when fully sheet in ( I do the same)
oldkiter wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:18 pm
Anyway, if foil kites are the opposite I do want to understand - but I think it's basically the same with maybe more sensitivity on bar movement/sheeting.
bar management to avoid backstall is the same , but as said by jakemoore you can not set the camber ( i.e. the A vs B vs C vs Z ) on a LEI.

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oldkiter
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Re: Pansh Aurora II 10m - one item off bucket list

Postby oldkiter » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:56 am

Thanks Regis and Jake. Lot to think about. But get the "camber" issue. Spent some time reading numerous posting - foilholio, socommk233, kiter-from Germany, northernkitesaustralia, etal.

Some comments on shortening Z, etc.

Think best thing is go back to square one and use kite as received with Pansh bar. The rears will be apx 25-30 cm shorter than front lines!

I've changed that bar to a single frontline release but will use original attachment points.

Noticed on some videos (land foiling with Aurora and Pansh bar) that front lines/depower is trimmed in a lot - might be reflection of rider "feeling" rear lines causing stalling?!

Anyway, will give it a go as "ready to fly" and make adjustments through trim line first. Also, will measure the ends of bridles - mixer test???

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Kykeon
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Re: Pansh Aurora II 10m - one item off bucket list

Postby Kykeon » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:25 am

Maybe a useless comment but may be worth clarifying:

When people say shorten the Z, they mean INSIDE the mixer, not to make the pigtail shorter.
I.e. the bar has nothing at all to do with it.

99% chance this is known but I just wanted to clarify in case we all cross talked.

Regis-de-giens
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Style: 62 kg , light wind
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foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
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Re: Pansh Aurora II 10m - one item off bucket list

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:07 am

You are right and Indeed worth clarifying ;

For pigtail to connect rear lines (and that could be done on LEIs) we usually speak of "rear line" length modification rather than "Z" which is clearly dedicated to the bridles group going to to the trailing edge ( so INSIDE the mixer , meaning in-between the 2 connections of the bar and the 4 connections to the kite)


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