Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Chrono V1 tip tucking

For all foil kite riders


kitexpert
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:20 pm
Kiting since: 2003
Gear: many kites, also diy
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby kitexpert » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:17 pm

foilholio wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:30 pm
I'll explain it as the thing with kites that increase camber, B is usually engaged quite a while before C and Z.
No. There is no reason why it should be like that. Camber increase during powering up does not relate "engaging times" (of line rows) at all. Basic approach is B-C-Z all engage simultaneously when bar is sheeted in: then kite changes AoA and increases/decreases camber how it was designed.
foilholio wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:30 pm
The advantage of B having engagement like this is it alters camber quite well to increase stability while not powering too much of the wing. It gives you good control in the depower range. C gives similar stability increase but engages more of the wing and so power, which can actually make it harder to control. By extending C we then allow B more engagement time before C or Z. Then there is the power benefit that a loosening C can increase camber, giving more power and lowering stall. That's one little trick to getting the tune just right.
WTF is this? Extending just C causes a distortion in airfoil, if also Z is extended (which makes it same as shortening B) camber is decreased, not increased.
foilholio wrote: Lengthening individual A bridles is by far the wrong way to do this, you will limit your depower doing that.
Wrong. Lengthening A has same effect as to shortening B-C like Horst Sergio earlier correctly wrote. Limiting depower may occur because kite with new slightly lower camber does not fly as far in the WW - but if more stability is needed by tweaking it is unavoidable. And how useful is that better "original" depower if kite collapses/tucks wingtips?

Mossy 757
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1534
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:10 pm
Kiting since: 2013
Local Beach: First Landing State Park, Virginia Beach Oceanfront
Style: Kitefoil
Gear: Delta Hydrofoil and board. Cabrinha Velocity 9m, Flysurfer Sonic2 11m, Elf Joker-7 15m

Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby Mossy 757 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:25 pm

Relax Z, if that doesn't work, sell your kite and buy a newer one with a more tunable mixer :lol:

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2391
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby foilholio » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:42 am

downunder wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:37 pm
Let him get the Serial Number etc and send to Ozone or post here.
I have R1 and would hate to see that happening. As LE exploded on my Boost1 which was only used 20 times or so over few seasons. So yeah, big, BIG, hustle doing mixers etc for that to happen :(
Put it this way, if that was a paraglider, he would lost his life and a huge investigation would happen...Ozone makes paragliders so should be noted.
These are not made to paraglider standards, particularly weaker on the bridles. They are used much more than a paraglider and don't have the use limits paragliders have. Use over water is quite safe but land very dangerous. I really hope kiting doesn't become heavily regulated, having to get a license will really suck. Some solid standards around gear would be really good, knowing a certain standard of gear is good for so many hours would make kiting a lot safer for things like land, remote kiting, etc. As it is now you just need to trust that certain brands like Flysurfer are the best you can use and not use old gear. Having said that about Flysurfer it's disturbing to hear that about a Boost :-/ .

Mossy 757 wrote: Relax Z, if that doesn't work, sell your kite and buy a newer one with a more tunable mixer :lol:
Second hand kites particularly foils usually have issues. Bargains can be had if you have the time and intelligence to fix them.
kitexpert wrote:No.
Yes
kitexpert wrote:There is no reason why it should be like that.
There is every reason it should, particular the one that it IS LIKE THAT!
kitexpert wrote: Camber increase during powering up does not relate "engaging times" (of line rows) at all.
Certainly does.
kitexpert wrote: Basic approach is B-C-Z all engage simultaneously when bar is sheeted in
Not on camber changing kites, not on advanced foil kites where their designer has a clue.
kitexpert wrote:WTF is this?
You displaying on a public forum your complete lack of knowledge. Lets just hope the LEI brand you work for doesn't accidentally get leaked. Corbet would be telling you to sweat at this point, but I like his new handle and particularly picture lol.
kitexpert wrote:Extending just C causes a distortion in airfoil
Amazing I know, you would think that is the desired intention LOL.
kitexpert wrote:if also Z is extended
This is in isolation to that, 2 different things. No free design lessons for you though.
kitexpert wrote:Wrong
No, you are an idiot.
kitexpert wrote:Lengthening A has same effect as to shortening B-C
No, it changes the AB limit too. You need to not touch B to not change that. Why am I having to explain this to someone who names himself an "expert". How does your employer put up with your ignorance? Oh I forgot they make infaltos, they encourage your ignorance and commend you for it.
kitexpert wrote: Limiting depower may occur because kite with new slightly lower camber
Oh so it does limit depower, lol. No it doesn't occur because you change camber, but because you change the limit on B. How can you be so stupid? You claim to design kites.
kitexpert wrote: but if more stability is needed by tweaking it is unavoidable
Oh wow. First of course it is avoidable, but it is painfully obvious now why you have no idea how that is so. Second how can you be contradicting yourself on needing tweaking, when you favorite saying is the whole kite should be redesigned.
kitexpert wrote: And how useful is that better "original" depower if kite collapses/tucks wingtips?
Ok ok free lesson for the "Expert", how the f.uck you can call yourself that, I am not sure, CAD work? lol maybe.. I digress. Ok instability could be initiated by the camber. Higher camber can cause the kite to rotate forward reduce AoA, collapse, fly out of the window or both. Strange set of events that sheeting in does not always increase AoA. Kite can even collapse when at high sheet states that would appear to be deeper in the window but are not when wind angle changes and so window moves putting kite more at the edge. Typical storm conditions will do this. Kites will never be as stable powered as depowered, but maximum depower is always useful particular for when conditions allow use, even flagging the kite could be considered depowering. One can always limit the depower with the bar or trim. There is no reason to reduce it at the mixer below what is usable in some conditions. Doing so will have large negatives on performance, particularly lightwind! There is interesting thing done on LEIs not really used fully on Foils yet which is to flag part of the canopy, completely killing it's lift and increase stability from increase drag of flapping skin. A low AR singleskin foil hydrid could do this.

kitexpert
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:20 pm
Kiting since: 2003
Gear: many kites, also diy
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby kitexpert » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:01 pm

Oh, foilholio :roll: Your opinions on kites and first of all on bridles and mixers are weird and over complicated. It is apparent you have developed your own explanations for many things and unfortunately they are quite often false. Then you somehow try to fit your modifications to them and interpret results from that base. I'm not saying everything you suggest is wrong, some of it is working but many times not for the reasons you think they are.

I give some basic concepts and used methods on how foil kite depower, and how mixer and the bridles work:

1. Depower is based on changing AoA of a kite. This happens by sheeting bar in/out and to make kite move respectively. Because foil kites are not rigid bridle support is needed and to get depower (changing AoA) bridle line rows must move accordingly. This is possible by using the mixer.

2. In a speed system, a mixer, there is some pulley ratios for the span wise line rows in the middle of the kite (usually B-C). A line row is fixed (fulcrum point) and Z is pulled straight, 1:1 (some exceptions are not relevant to this post). Which pulley ratios are chosen depends, nowadays almost a standard is 1:2:4 mixer.

3. By designing line row locations in a certain way it is possible to get kite to increase camber during powering up. FS calls this (as one third of) "triple depower", although more correct would be to call it "more power", because when depowered original airfoil is not affected much or not at all by the bridles/mixer.

4.It is quite possible to have a depowerable kite which does not change its camber at all, just AoA.

5. Tuning a kite to higher or lower camber is possible in a mixer. As well this can be done above the mixer, and it is better to do so if for example wingtips tuck. Then problem is local and it is best to fix it locally.

6. Camber change by tuning is different thing to camber change which occurs when powering up. First one is a preset, second one is a designed and fixed property of a kite.

7.After mixer/bridle tuning mixer works just like before it, pulley ratios and camber change are unaffected. There is just new preset for the camber of the airfoil, lower or higher.

8. If there is too much preset it will create noticeable distortion to the canopy. Actually every single part of the kite is wrong shaped for the new tweaked camber. This increases drag, but benefits can be bigger if tweaking is of reasonable size.

9. If tweaking is so radical that some line rows slack (engage later) there will be a local distortions because there is a lack of bridle support. Exception is Z, but if it is too loose steering suffers and then relatively more pulled B-C will decrease camber during powering up, which isn't of course sensible.

10. If kite is generally bad design it is impossible to fix it by bridle/mixer adjustments, because these adjustments are meant for fine tuning. If kite is a quality product it is 99% best option to keep it in factory settings.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2391
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby foilholio » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:24 pm

kitexpert wrote:1. Depower is based on changing AoA of a kite.
Depower is better described as reduction in pull, components being lift and drag. There are other methods than mere AoA reduction, but AoA reduction is the main method.
kitexpert wrote:FS calls this (as one third of) "triple depower"
Triple meaning 3 parts or ways. Interesting as flysurfer there talks of 3 ways to depower, but apparently from your earlier and other talk you can't understand that. But hey what does Flysurfer know? They are just the most successful foil kite maker in the world and you are "the expert" a failed tube designer.
kitexpert wrote: because when depowered original airfoil is not affected much or not at all by the bridles/mixer.
You don't seem to realize it but let me say once more you are an idiot. Depowered and powered are not fixed absolute states. A kite can be 10% powered or 80% depowered. A number of things affect that , main one being front rear line relationship.
kitexpert wrote: 4.It is quite possible to have a depowerable kite which does not change its camber at all, just AoA.
Sure theoretically it is, but it hasn't really been done or not in our sport.
kitexpert wrote: 5. Tuning a kite to higher or lower camber is possible in a mixer.
One of your not so strange contradictions again.
kitexpert wrote: 8. If there is too much preset it will create noticeable distortion to the canopy.
Amazing, changing the shape of something, wait for it changes the shape of it!
kitexpert wrote: This increases drag, but benefits can be bigger if tweaking is of reasonable size.
Unhealthy obsession with drag you have there. I bet you frustrated over bridles while increasing tube size on some of your tube kite designs. Kind of like not being able to see the redwoods from the grass.

Benefits are entirely based on needs, of which drag could be one. The principal increase of drag with camber is the camber not some creases in the kite lol.
kitexpert wrote: 9. If tweaking is so radical that some line rows slack (engage later) there will be a local distortions because there is a lack of bridle support.
Nope this is how advanced foil kites work. Advanced foil kites, apparently something you are not familiar with!
kitexpert wrote: 10. If kite is generally bad design it is impossible to fix it by bridle/mixer adjustments, because these adjustments are meant for fine tuning. If kite is a quality product it is 99% best option to keep it in factory settings.
What a damn worthless statement that is if there ever was one. Amazing as it is some retarded myoptic kite designers don't know what a quality product is. Any hope of them fine tuning anything is nill. Foil kites never stay in a setting. Kites can be adjusted quite radically for different needs.

kitexpert
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:20 pm
Kiting since: 2003
Gear: many kites, also diy
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby kitexpert » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:15 pm

foilholio wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:24 pm

Triple meaning 3 parts or ways. Interesting as flysurfer there talks of 3 ways to depower, but apparently from your earlier and other talk you can't understand that. But hey what does Flysurfer know? They are just the most successful foil kite maker in the world and you are "the expert" a failed tube designer.
It is just simplification, a marketing talk - didn't you got at all what I just explained?
foilholio wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:24 pm
Depowered and powered are not fixed absolute states. A kite can be 10% powered or 80% depowered. A number of things affect that , main one being front rear line relationship.
Foil kite is fully depowered when there is no tension in backlines. Then kite is at lowest AoA its design allows.
foilholio wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:24 pm
One of your not so strange contradictions again.
Nonsense. When I've separated two different things, camber adjustment and built-in camber change you have messed them hopelessly and claimed I was contradicting myself. :lol: Do you foilholio still understand how that built-in mechanism works?
foilholio wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:24 pm
Nope this is how advanced foil kites work. Advanced foil kites, apparently something you are not familiar with!
Nonsense. There is no slacking or too tight line rows in good kites. Everything is in balance and kite changes its AoA smoothly, with slightly increasing camber when powering up. In that way AoA changes with lowest drag (or best L/D) possible.
foilholio wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:24 pm
Kites can be adjusted quite radically for different needs.
Yes, you can spoil fine tuned kite with tinkering it. At best you can fine tune kite for specific needs, but price of that is some other properties of the kite get worse.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2391
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby foilholio » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:12 am

kitexpert wrote: Foil kite is fully depowered when there is no tension in backlines. Then kite is at lowest AoA its design allows.
Nope not at all. Apparently all your years of what ever it is you do with kites and the basics of kite dynamics has eluded you.
kitexpert wrote:with slightly increasing camber when powering up.
You are slightly contradicting yourself there and slightly admitting you are wrong from so many other posts.
kitexpert wrote: In that way AoA changes with lowest drag (or best L/D) possible.
Increasing camber won't improve L/D only lift. I understand why that is beyond you because your specialty is tube kites, and too would explain why they are so poor L/D. Designer is confused about what makes better L/D. There is lots of materials to read on this, start at google.com .
kitexpert wrote: At best you can fine tune kite for specific needs, but price of that is some other properties of the kite get worse.
WOW revolutionary stuff you are writing there. Next thing you will be telling me is kites can be designed for specific uses, wave kite for waves and race kites for racing, and either is worse at the other's use. Simply AMAZING!

kitexpert
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:20 pm
Kiting since: 2003
Gear: many kites, also diy
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby kitexpert » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:23 am

foilholio wrote:Nope not at all


:lol: Could you now explain how foil kite can depower even more if backlines are already slacking?
foilholio wrote:Increasing camber won't improve L/D only lift.
:lol: Do you mean every airfoil has same L/D or is it perhaps worse with higher camber? Do you know at all how AoA affects on L/D for different airfoils?
foilholio wrote:telling me is kites can be designed for specific uses
Designing kites and tinkering them are two different things, what is possible for one is not possible for other.

User avatar
downunder
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1532
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:16 am
Kiting since: 1970
Gear: building my own
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby downunder » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:59 am

Guys

Unfortunately, when I see something like 'reset your mixer' or anything mixer related, I get a goose bumps.

Very high percentage of people never ever touches anything on the kites or bars or boards. So imagine this people playing with a mixer OR even using a foil kite.

Look, this might surprise someone, but the usual comment I get about my foils is: that thing looks complicated.

"That thing looks complicated" is nothing comparing what is written here. It will just deflect anyone interested in even trying a foil.

99% of people just want a simplicity of kiting. If that does not resonate with a foil users, dunno what is.

I would highly suggest to take any kite foil mixer discussion offline, simply coz it WILL work against all of us as too complicated to use.

Which is already presenting itself as such. It is not a great sales pitch. Good luck.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2391
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None

Re: Chrono V1 tip tucking

Postby foilholio » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:03 pm

Sorry downunder but foil kites are complicated and that's the truth. All those bits of string are not without issues. Interesting issues that bridles on Inflatables can sort of have too. There is no hiding from the realities of a foil at some point of ownership! If that drives down ownership then so be it, again though it's the truth.

Everyone wants simplicity, reliability, performance, durability. The reality is there is distinct advantages and disadvantages to foils, and the same for Inflatables. I could give you the short up front and that is for me overall I am much happier with foils. The things that come to mind that I like more about foils over Inflatables are Setup, Packup, Landing, Launching, Durability, Efficiency, Drift, Adjustability, Power, Wind range, Lightwind, Packing size, Convenience, Longevity. Many may argue but that from a lot of experience is the list of whats better about foils over LEIs. Whats worse is a short list, Repairs, Settings changing, Porosity, Turning, Response and less now but a continual stigma and discrimination for riding a foil , I mean man whats wrong with you all the other monkeys pump up LOL.

The fixable problems with foils and how to fix them are very well understood now. No need to go guess as in the old days :-) Ask here and you shall receive an answer in the right direction.

The shitfest between me and that expert is nothing to do with much just ignore it. :-)

Lets continue.
kitexpert wrote: :lol: Could you now explain how foil kite can depower even more if backlines are already slacking?
Sure but not for you, you should already understand it you are the expert. One hint though it's a kite thing not a foil kite thing.
kitexpert wrote: :lol: Do you mean every airfoil has same L/D or is it perhaps worse with higher camber?
Of course higher camber is higher lift, drag increases with lift.
kitexpert wrote: Do you know at all how AoA affects on L/D for different airfoils?
Do you know how there is no different airfoils only AoAs? You didn't did you. Let me rephrase that question so you can see how stupid it is.

Do you know at all how AoA affects on L/D for different AoA?

Like an infinity loop a very stupid question.
kitexpert wrote: Designing kites and tinkering them are two different things, what is possible for one is not possible for other.
And what is tried in between has apparently not by you!


Return to “Foil Kites”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest